4 ms·

They may find it creepy, but why should it be illegal or regulated by the government in any way? If you don't like the creepy establishments, go elsewhere?

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
That assumes that the customer is aware that it's happening and that there are other stores that don't do it. Since at least one of those things is vanishingly unlikely, we have legislation.
Nextgrid 5y ago
What if everyone does it and so you literally don't have anywhere else to go? What if the data collection was done in such a way that most non-technical people aren't even aware what data is being collected and how it is used? In my hypothetical example about a business employing an army of workers to follow, photograph & take notes about every customer the behavior would at least be visible by the customers (and so they could choose to go elsewhere), which is not the case with modern technology - data is being collected silently in the background. > why should it be illegal or regulated by the government in any way There are plenty of other unlawful things you could apply this question to. Society enacts laws to dissuade & punish behaviors that the majority finds reprehensible.
tpush 5y ago
> They may find it creepy, but why should it be illegal or regulated by the government in any way? Because that society has decided that it wants no creepy restaurants at all. Same with unclean ones, discriminatory ones, etc.
- Aerroon 5y ago
  Has it though? I don't remember being asked. And yet I see every single supermarket offer their own membership card "to get discounts" and everybody is happy with it. The only purpose of that card is precisely to track your purchases. It seems to me that some people in society decided that websites aren't allowed to sell ads based on what you view, but all the other tracking in our society is just a-okay. I've not seen a single campaign or push against predatory membership cards or credit card info being sold.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    > Has it though? I don't remember being asked. Depends if you're in the EU but I guess you could've lobbied against the GDPR when it was being drafted. You could also lobby against restaurant food safety regulations, or discrimination laws. The reason these laws are there and stick around is because a majority decided that these behaviors were noxious and should be outlawed and the current majority appears to be happy enough with the current situation to not demand laws to be changed. > every single supermarket offer their own membership card "to get discounts" and everybody is happy with it It is opt-in (you can decide to not swipe it when buying the aforementioned fungus cream if you don't want it associated with you), the data collection is relatively common knowledge and is disclosed when you sign up for the card (and if it isn't then that's a breach of the GDPR and should be rectified). In comparison, online data collection is at best opt-out and at worst mandatory and often invisible (and even if you could see what data is collected from your browser, you have no visibility on what further processing is done on it or to whom it gets transferred or sold). > but all the other tracking in our society is just a-okay Source? > I've not seen a single campaign or push against predatory membership cards Those are opt-in. > or credit card info being sold. Every time the selling of credit card info comes up on HN people speak out against it just like they do against ad tracking, and the only reason nobody else talks about it is because they most likely don't know (would a reasonable person expect their bank to be sharing their purchase info with third-parties?). Both of these issues are addressed by the GDPR by the way; it covers much more than just ad tracking on the web.
    - Aerroon 5y ago
      But GDPR bars websites from doing what the stores are doing. The website can't refuse to serve you the website if you don't agree to the tracking, but membership cards work exactly like that. You only get the membership discount if you agree to the tracking. Websites aren't allowed to do that.
      - Nextgrid 5y ago
        The store doesn't bar you from entering & shopping without a membership card. If they did, it could very well be that the GDPR would equally apply and forbid them from mandatory data collection as a prerequisite for shopping there.
- thegrimmest 5y ago
  "society has decided" all sorts of awful things in the past. I'm just pointing out that this is one of them.

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago

That assumes that the customer is aware that it's happening and that there are other stores that don't do it. Since at least one of those things is vanishingly unlikely, we have legislation.

Nextgrid 5y ago

What if everyone does it and so you literally don't have anywhere else to go? What if the data collection was done in such a way that most non-technical people aren't even aware what data is being collected and how it is used? In my hypothetical example about a business employing an army of workers to follow, photograph & take notes about every customer the behavior would at least be visible by the customers (and so they could choose to go elsewhere), which is not the case with modern technology - data is being collected silently in the background. > why should it be illegal or regulated by the government in any way There are plenty of other unlawful things you could apply this question to. Society enacts laws to dissuade & punish behaviors that the majority finds reprehensible.

tpush 5y ago

> They may find it creepy, but why should it be illegal or regulated by the government in any way? Because that society has decided that it wants no creepy restaurants at all. Same with unclean ones, discriminatory ones, etc.

Aerroon 5y ago
Has it though? I don't remember being asked. And yet I see every single supermarket offer their own membership card "to get discounts" and everybody is happy with it. The only purpose of that card is precisely to track your purchases. It seems to me that some people in society decided that websites aren't allowed to sell ads based on what you view, but all the other tracking in our society is just a-okay. I've not seen a single campaign or push against predatory membership cards or credit card info being sold.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  > Has it though? I don't remember being asked. Depends if you're in the EU but I guess you could've lobbied against the GDPR when it was being drafted. You could also lobby against restaurant food safety regulations, or discrimination laws. The reason these laws are there and stick around is because a majority decided that these behaviors were noxious and should be outlawed and the current majority appears to be happy enough with the current situation to not demand laws to be changed. > every single supermarket offer their own membership card "to get discounts" and everybody is happy with it It is opt-in (you can decide to not swipe it when buying the aforementioned fungus cream if you don't want it associated with you), the data collection is relatively common knowledge and is disclosed when you sign up for the card (and if it isn't then that's a breach of the GDPR and should be rectified). In comparison, online data collection is at best opt-out and at worst mandatory and often invisible (and even if you could see what data is collected from your browser, you have no visibility on what further processing is done on it or to whom it gets transferred or sold). > but all the other tracking in our society is just a-okay Source? > I've not seen a single campaign or push against predatory membership cards Those are opt-in. > or credit card info being sold. Every time the selling of credit card info comes up on HN people speak out against it just like they do against ad tracking, and the only reason nobody else talks about it is because they most likely don't know (would a reasonable person expect their bank to be sharing their purchase info with third-parties?). Both of these issues are addressed by the GDPR by the way; it covers much more than just ad tracking on the web.
  - Aerroon 5y ago
    But GDPR bars websites from doing what the stores are doing. The website can't refuse to serve you the website if you don't agree to the tracking, but membership cards work exactly like that. You only get the membership discount if you agree to the tracking. Websites aren't allowed to do that.
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      The store doesn't bar you from entering & shopping without a membership card. If they did, it could very well be that the GDPR would equally apply and forbid them from mandatory data collection as a prerequisite for shopping there.
thegrimmest 5y ago
"society has decided" all sorts of awful things in the past. I'm just pointing out that this is one of them.