7 ms·

Or you could, you know, not track your users.

whoknowswhat11 5y ago
Even the EU's own website using cookies. https://europa.eu/european-union/index_en https://europa.eu/european-union/index_en Most users don't care about a session cookie or whatever. In fact for some sites / SPAs etc where users are behind NATs are CGNATs they are pretty needed / useful. Or if the website is being hosted behind a load balancer, you can do a sticky session with the cookie, and many more uses.
- stan_rogers 5y ago
  Session cookies (and other cookie types that are actually necessary for proper site functioning) do not require, and never have required, consent. It's all of the other crap that does.
  - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
    Do you understand that even if you don't click accept, if you browse the EU's own websites, they track you? https://ec.europa.eu/info/privacy-policy/europa-analytics_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/privacy-policy/europa-analytics_en The anti-google / pro-gdpr stuff is almost religious orthodoxy now in terms of its unwillingness to evaluate facts.
    - Nicksil 5y ago
      >Do you understand that even if you don't click accept, if you browse the EU's own websites, they track you? >https://ec.europa.eu/info/privacy-policy/europa-analytics_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/privacy-policy/europa-analytics_en >The anti-google / pro-gdpr stuff is almost religious orthodoxy now in terms of its unwillingness to evaluate facts. No, you can set your browser's do not track preference and this website will honor it (among the vanishingly few who do).
      - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
        Again, this illustrates are badly understood and hard GDPR is. Browser preferences are opt-out currently. ie, users has to go set some flag. The GDPR requires informed affirmative consent. "Consent must be freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous." So having a website that track you unless you set some browser flag is not enough. Many folks say that you need specific consent to track. That is why there are so many pop-ups on EU websites.
    - timeon 5y ago
      Anonymized matomo tracking strips parts of ip address - it is not so precise but it does not track you across those sites. So they have some kind of page counter but it is not same as full analytics.
      - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
        They are not doing that. Matomo anonymous Ip is separate (and google and others use similar features). They claim no cookie consent is needed because: * tracking cookies are not used * the data is not used for any other purpose than analytics * a user cannot be tracked across days within the same website https://matomo.org/faq/new-to-piwik/how-do-i-use-matomo-analytics-without-consent-or-cookie-banner/ https://matomo.org/faq/new-to-piwik/how-do-i-use-matomo-anal... Reality is EU website sets a 13 month cookie, they clearly explain they will track a lot of data about you. Anyways, some folks here claim that just using things for analytics is NOT an allowed exception to GDPR notice rules. I mention this to just again show that GDRP is not simple (despite claims here that it is "so easy").
- tchalla 5y ago
  There's a simple way to opt-out https://europa.eu/european-union/abouteuropa/privacy-policy/europa-analytics_en https://europa.eu/european-union/abouteuropa/privacy-policy/...
- Nicksil 5y ago
  >Even the EU's own website using cookies. What's the argument here? >Most users don't care about a session cookie or whatever. Where did you hear this? Most users don't know what a cookie is.
havkd 5y ago
Good luck making any money if you can’t show relevant ads to users. But who cares about business owners. Certainly not the EU.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Good luck making money as a shitty restaurant that doesn't care about food safety and hygiene. But who cares about restaurant owners. Certainly not the EU. Snark aside, if you can't make money without stalking users, maybe you shouldn't be in business.
  - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
    Is GDPR coming to restaurants somehow? Oh god! This really is getting worse and worse. Is this for things like remembering your favorite orders etc? I could see some GDPR arguments there. What if a waitress just remembers your orders in their head - will they need a consent form? If they put it in their CRM / sales system? The issue folks have is many users if given a choice, will take the free service (instagram / tiktok / free gmail) in return for being tracked if they are given a choice. Feel free to start up the business that doesn't do this (protonmail etc). But MAJOR services are built the other direction (ie, billions of users worldwide).
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      > If they put it in their CRM / sales system? Yes, this would be covered by the GDPR and for good reason. If I join tonight's waiting list and provide a phone number in case they suddenly have a table become available I do not want that phone number to be reused for marketing spam down the line. > The issue folks have is many users if given a choice, will take the free service [...] in return for being tracked if they are given a choice. Apple's recent App Tracking Transparency stats suggest that when given a free choice, only 4% of users actually opt-in: https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/05/07/only-4-of-ios-users-in-us-are-opting-in-to-ad-tracking-report-says https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/05/07/only-4-of-ios-use... So clearly, when given the choice, most people would rather not be tracked. The problem the GDPR is trying to address is that people are not given the choice. > But MAJOR services are built the other direction There were plenty of businesses in the past that were built on basics that we now deem harmful. Back in the early 20th century, it was legal to sell radioactive water and market it as a miracle cure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radithor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radithor Society has since determined this is harmful and outlawed that. The same thing is currently happening with environmental pollution, and the GDPR is trying to do the same for noxious business models on the web.

Even the EU's own website using cookies. https://europa.eu/european-union/index_en https://europa.eu/european-union/index_en Most users don't care about a session cookie or whatever. In fact for some sites / SPAs etc where users are behind NATs are CGNATs they are pretty needed / useful. Or if the website is being hosted behind a load balancer, you can do a sticky session with the cookie, and many more uses.

stan_rogers 5y ago
Session cookies (and other cookie types that are actually necessary for proper site functioning) do not require, and never have required, consent. It's all of the other crap that does.
- whoknowswhat11 5y ago
  Do you understand that even if you don't click accept, if you browse the EU's own websites, they track you? https://ec.europa.eu/info/privacy-policy/europa-analytics_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/privacy-policy/europa-analytics_en The anti-google / pro-gdpr stuff is almost religious orthodoxy now in terms of its unwillingness to evaluate facts.
  - Nicksil 5y ago
    >Do you understand that even if you don't click accept, if you browse the EU's own websites, they track you? >https://ec.europa.eu/info/privacy-policy/europa-analytics_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/privacy-policy/europa-analytics_en >The anti-google / pro-gdpr stuff is almost religious orthodoxy now in terms of its unwillingness to evaluate facts. No, you can set your browser's do not track preference and this website will honor it (among the vanishingly few who do).
    - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
      Again, this illustrates are badly understood and hard GDPR is. Browser preferences are opt-out currently. ie, users has to go set some flag. The GDPR requires informed affirmative consent. "Consent must be freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous." So having a website that track you unless you set some browser flag is not enough. Many folks say that you need specific consent to track. That is why there are so many pop-ups on EU websites.
  - timeon 5y ago
    Anonymized matomo tracking strips parts of ip address - it is not so precise but it does not track you across those sites. So they have some kind of page counter but it is not same as full analytics.
    - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
      They are not doing that. Matomo anonymous Ip is separate (and google and others use similar features). They claim no cookie consent is needed because: * tracking cookies are not used * the data is not used for any other purpose than analytics * a user cannot be tracked across days within the same website https://matomo.org/faq/new-to-piwik/how-do-i-use-matomo-analytics-without-consent-or-cookie-banner/ https://matomo.org/faq/new-to-piwik/how-do-i-use-matomo-anal... Reality is EU website sets a 13 month cookie, they clearly explain they will track a lot of data about you. Anyways, some folks here claim that just using things for analytics is NOT an allowed exception to GDPR notice rules. I mention this to just again show that GDRP is not simple (despite claims here that it is "so easy").
tchalla 5y ago
There's a simple way to opt-out https://europa.eu/european-union/abouteuropa/privacy-policy/europa-analytics_en https://europa.eu/european-union/abouteuropa/privacy-policy/...
Nicksil 5y ago
>Even the EU's own website using cookies. What's the argument here? >Most users don't care about a session cookie or whatever. Where did you hear this? Most users don't know what a cookie is.

havkd 5y ago

Good luck making any money if you can’t show relevant ads to users. But who cares about business owners. Certainly not the EU.

Nextgrid 5y ago
Good luck making money as a shitty restaurant that doesn't care about food safety and hygiene. But who cares about restaurant owners. Certainly not the EU. Snark aside, if you can't make money without stalking users, maybe you shouldn't be in business.
- whoknowswhat11 5y ago
  Is GDPR coming to restaurants somehow? Oh god! This really is getting worse and worse. Is this for things like remembering your favorite orders etc? I could see some GDPR arguments there. What if a waitress just remembers your orders in their head - will they need a consent form? If they put it in their CRM / sales system? The issue folks have is many users if given a choice, will take the free service (instagram / tiktok / free gmail) in return for being tracked if they are given a choice. Feel free to start up the business that doesn't do this (protonmail etc). But MAJOR services are built the other direction (ie, billions of users worldwide).
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    > If they put it in their CRM / sales system? Yes, this would be covered by the GDPR and for good reason. If I join tonight's waiting list and provide a phone number in case they suddenly have a table become available I do not want that phone number to be reused for marketing spam down the line. > The issue folks have is many users if given a choice, will take the free service [...] in return for being tracked if they are given a choice. Apple's recent App Tracking Transparency stats suggest that when given a free choice, only 4% of users actually opt-in: https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/05/07/only-4-of-ios-users-in-us-are-opting-in-to-ad-tracking-report-says https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/05/07/only-4-of-ios-use... So clearly, when given the choice, most people would rather not be tracked. The problem the GDPR is trying to address is that people are not given the choice. > But MAJOR services are built the other direction There were plenty of businesses in the past that were built on basics that we now deem harmful. Back in the early 20th century, it was legal to sell radioactive water and market it as a miracle cure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radithor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radithor Society has since determined this is harmful and outlawed that. The same thing is currently happening with environmental pollution, and the GDPR is trying to do the same for noxious business models on the web.