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> This is throwing money at an interesting problem with an incredibly low outcome of success. But an incredibly high return if successful. Nuclear fission (edi

> This is throwing money at an interesting problem with an incredibly low outcome of success. But an incredibly high return if successful. Nuclear fission (edit... accidentally wrote fusion here), if we can figure it out, is potentially the golden ticket to reducing our carbon footprint. Unlike geothermal energy, it can be done anywhere. Unlike wind or solar, it can be done at any time. It doesn't have the safety issues associated with fusion, nor does it generate waste products nearly as hard to deal with. Right now, carbon emissions breakdown in the US are broken down by: Transportation - 29% Electricity production - 25% Industry - 23% Commercial and Residential - 13% Agriculture - 10% Land use and forestry - 12% By moving to fusion, you can all but eliminate fossil fuel usage in the first two (and largest) categories. You can knock a large chunk out of the next two categories, where much of the emissions is due to burning fossil fuels for energy (heating, etc.). You'll still have emissions from agriculture and land use, but you can clamp down on most emissions in a big way. If you can figure out fusion and get it working on an industrial scale level on par with other forms of electricity production (which is a big if), then you'll have achieved a monumental technological leap and you'll make a lot of money while at it.

boringg 5y ago
Listen I'm all for these kinds of investments. Its very high risk and potentially a high reward. I think likely the reward will be some technology development in the process that helps something else but not in the direction they currently are going. Thats just the way things typically shake out. Especially grandiose plans like this. They need to prove that the research works to actually produce net electricity - which requires a scientific breakthrough. Next after a research breakthrough - they need to make this a product -- then a commercial product. During that process they need to make this a commercially viable economically viable product that can compete against other forms of energy in the marketplace. They will need to get through serious regulatory requirements. And remember that they need to make this commercially viable to produce electricity at a very low cost - its super competitive at baseload power cost range. By the time this comes to market the energy landscape will be completely different. It is already moving incredibly quickly. Like I've said on other post - we need these kinds of moonshots but let's not have them distract against the other important work of deploying already commercially ready technology into the market.
- DennisP 5y ago
  Helion might not work out like they hope but if it does, it'll use aneutronic fuel, producing only 6% of its energy as neutron radiation. That's low enough that they don't need a heat cycle, which gives them a shot at a pretty low cost per kWh. I think they've estimated four cents, which is pretty good for scalable, dispatchable power without batteries. The UK recently announced a regulatory regime for fusion, with significantly lighter requirements than fission since safety and proliferation issues are much less troublesome. That would be even more the case for aneutronic fusion. Possibly the US would be silly enough to get in the way but many other countries certainly wouldn't, including China.
  - throw9000 5y ago
    > Possibly the US would be silly enough to get in the way but many other countries certainly wouldn't, including China. As an American this is accurate and depressing.
    - dcow 5y ago
      How is anybody supposed to regulate a nonexistent technology? And why? We cant even regulate internet stalkers… why is fusion more of a target?
      - boringg 5y ago
        The term nuclear and that energy is a highly regulated marketplace
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  > - they need to make this a product -- then a commercial product. During that process they need to make this a commercially viable economically viable product that can compete against other forms of energy in the marketplace. They’re in a really good position here because they actually don’t. Being a no-carbon power source puts them in an almost new market. The government can (should) regulate carbon fuel away, and pour money into this in a non-market way to tip scales. Energy is heavily regulated but also heavily government funded.
dangrossman 5y ago
Even better: much of the "industry" emissions are from producing fuel for the "transportation" category. Oil refineries are the biggest emissions generators in the US manufacturing sector, and some of the largest consumers of electricity in the process, to the point that many refineries have their own power plants on site. If we had fusion power and electric cars, much of those "industry" emissions go away too.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
bananabreakfast 5y ago
You have your terms backwards. Fusion is what they are doing here. Fission we have already figured out and have been generating power from for decades. Fusion does not have the runaway reaction safety issues that fission has. Also, what you're describing is what we've known since we fairly easily harnessed fusion to make a hydrogen bomb. Controlling the reaction rate so it doesn't explode is metastable with fission, and nearly impossible with fusion. This solution is basically just using tiny explosions.
throwaway894345 5y ago
As others have mentioned, you have your terms backwards. We already have nuclear fission, and its only problem is political FUD[1]. I can't imagine that the fossil fuel industry's FUD machine will spare fusion energy. [1]: Nuclear is one of the safest kinds of energy we have even including every absurd disaster. We already know how to deal with the waste, and the unit cost of managing nuclear waste is very low (the up-front costs are high, but we're already committed to those costs).
- wombatpm 5y ago
  Three Mile Island Chernobyl Fukushima Plus the cleanup at Savanah River by the DOE/DOD
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Now do the numbers for coal, LNG, or even rooftop solar. Throw in the cleanup costs for a terawatt of solar panels while you're at it.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  It might be not unreasonably unsafe, compared to e.g. coal (which will be phased out). But as an investment it is even riskier than FRC fusion. The ratepayers of South Carolina were made to invest $30B in a fission project that will, in the end, produce exactly zero watt-hours of energy. But might burn even more money, first.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Yes, large fission projects probably aren’t the way to go these days—I’d rather see investment in Small Nuclear Reactor technology. More importantly though, considering the alternative (failing to mitigate climate change) the risk-adjusted cost of nuclear is minuscule. Moreover, I don’t understand how it is “riskier” than fusion, which still hasn’t been deployed anywhere in any form?
    - 5y ago

boringg 5y ago

Listen I'm all for these kinds of investments. Its very high risk and potentially a high reward. I think likely the reward will be some technology development in the process that helps something else but not in the direction they currently are going. Thats just the way things typically shake out. Especially grandiose plans like this. They need to prove that the research works to actually produce net electricity - which requires a scientific breakthrough. Next after a research breakthrough - they need to make this a product -- then a commercial product. During that process they need to make this a commercially viable economically viable product that can compete against other forms of energy in the marketplace. They will need to get through serious regulatory requirements. And remember that they need to make this commercially viable to produce electricity at a very low cost - its super competitive at baseload power cost range. By the time this comes to market the energy landscape will be completely different. It is already moving incredibly quickly. Like I've said on other post - we need these kinds of moonshots but let's not have them distract against the other important work of deploying already commercially ready technology into the market.

DennisP 5y ago
Helion might not work out like they hope but if it does, it'll use aneutronic fuel, producing only 6% of its energy as neutron radiation. That's low enough that they don't need a heat cycle, which gives them a shot at a pretty low cost per kWh. I think they've estimated four cents, which is pretty good for scalable, dispatchable power without batteries. The UK recently announced a regulatory regime for fusion, with significantly lighter requirements than fission since safety and proliferation issues are much less troublesome. That would be even more the case for aneutronic fusion. Possibly the US would be silly enough to get in the way but many other countries certainly wouldn't, including China.
- throw9000 5y ago
  > Possibly the US would be silly enough to get in the way but many other countries certainly wouldn't, including China. As an American this is accurate and depressing.
  - dcow 5y ago
    How is anybody supposed to regulate a nonexistent technology? And why? We cant even regulate internet stalkers… why is fusion more of a target?
    - boringg 5y ago
      The term nuclear and that energy is a highly regulated marketplace
vineyardmike 5y ago
> - they need to make this a product -- then a commercial product. During that process they need to make this a commercially viable economically viable product that can compete against other forms of energy in the marketplace. They’re in a really good position here because they actually don’t. Being a no-carbon power source puts them in an almost new market. The government can (should) regulate carbon fuel away, and pour money into this in a non-market way to tip scales. Energy is heavily regulated but also heavily government funded.

dangrossman 5y ago

Even better: much of the "industry" emissions are from producing fuel for the "transportation" category. Oil refineries are the biggest emissions generators in the US manufacturing sector, and some of the largest consumers of electricity in the process, to the point that many refineries have their own power plants on site. If we had fusion power and electric cars, much of those "industry" emissions go away too.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

bananabreakfast 5y ago

You have your terms backwards. Fusion is what they are doing here. Fission we have already figured out and have been generating power from for decades. Fusion does not have the runaway reaction safety issues that fission has. Also, what you're describing is what we've known since we fairly easily harnessed fusion to make a hydrogen bomb. Controlling the reaction rate so it doesn't explode is metastable with fission, and nearly impossible with fusion. This solution is basically just using tiny explosions.

throwaway894345 5y ago

As others have mentioned, you have your terms backwards. We already have nuclear fission, and its only problem is political FUD[1]. I can't imagine that the fossil fuel industry's FUD machine will spare fusion energy. [1]: Nuclear is one of the safest kinds of energy we have even including every absurd disaster. We already know how to deal with the waste, and the unit cost of managing nuclear waste is very low (the up-front costs are high, but we're already committed to those costs).

wombatpm 5y ago
Three Mile Island Chernobyl Fukushima Plus the cleanup at Savanah River by the DOE/DOD
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Now do the numbers for coal, LNG, or even rooftop solar. Throw in the cleanup costs for a terawatt of solar panels while you're at it.
ncmncm 5y ago
It might be not unreasonably unsafe, compared to e.g. coal (which will be phased out). But as an investment it is even riskier than FRC fusion. The ratepayers of South Carolina were made to invest $30B in a fission project that will, in the end, produce exactly zero watt-hours of energy. But might burn even more money, first.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Yes, large fission projects probably aren’t the way to go these days—I’d rather see investment in Small Nuclear Reactor technology. More importantly though, considering the alternative (failing to mitigate climate change) the risk-adjusted cost of nuclear is minuscule. Moreover, I don’t understand how it is “riskier” than fusion, which still hasn’t been deployed anywhere in any form?
  - 5y ago