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> Are you saying the sub's CO is the lowly person being sacrificed for some higher up? A troubling pattern of incidents and (alleged) failures to recognize or

> Are you saying the sub's CO is the lowly person being sacrificed for some higher up? A troubling pattern of incidents and (alleged) failures to recognize or react to systemic problems in the navy is emerging. The most important question now is not about the incompetent crews and commanders on these boats and ships, it is why such people keep being allowed to command and serve on vessels in the first place.

QuarterReptile 5y ago
>The most important question now is not about the incompetent crews and commanders on these boats and ships, it is why such people keep being allowed to command and serve on vessels in the first place. Which 'such people' are you referring to?
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  The ones who are ill trained and ill prepared for the task of sailing ships and submarines without crashing them into the sea floor or other ships, are incapable of responding to fires on board, etc.
  - QuarterReptile 5y ago
    Yeah, identifying those people is the hard part. Running a ship is not a natural skillset, for starters. And a prerequisite for doing so is an almost unbelievable amount of knowledge so you can call bullshit on guys when their plans don't cover a caveat in a manual they've never heard of or obscure correspondence from five years ago. Even once you've gotten through all that, there's the problem of knowing which officers are the really good ones. And no single person in the organization has total control over that (for good reasons), and if he did, he still wouldn't have the required knowledge of all the officers to make the right picks. And then there's the simple fact that those submarine officers can easily get out of the navy and raise their pay by 50% while not being away from home for months on end and working easy hours (as in, days rarely longer than 10 hours and rarely weekends.) So you have to both find and retain the officers you need. Everyone involved would love to have a better system, and the processes to find and retain good officers changes constantly, reflecting that desire for improvement.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      That's the admiralty's job though, it's not supposed to be easy. They are supposed to be good at it. It's not as though it's impossible or pure luck, and the stories coming out say there are warning signs there which have not been acted upon. This is OP's point. Of course you fire the captain if he grounds his ship or rams another ship. But if your fleet's captains keep running into things, the solution is not to simply keep firing them.

QuarterReptile 5y ago

>The most important question now is not about the incompetent crews and commanders on these boats and ships, it is why such people keep being allowed to command and serve on vessels in the first place. Which 'such people' are you referring to?

throwawaylinux 5y ago
The ones who are ill trained and ill prepared for the task of sailing ships and submarines without crashing them into the sea floor or other ships, are incapable of responding to fires on board, etc.
- QuarterReptile 5y ago
  Yeah, identifying those people is the hard part. Running a ship is not a natural skillset, for starters. And a prerequisite for doing so is an almost unbelievable amount of knowledge so you can call bullshit on guys when their plans don't cover a caveat in a manual they've never heard of or obscure correspondence from five years ago. Even once you've gotten through all that, there's the problem of knowing which officers are the really good ones. And no single person in the organization has total control over that (for good reasons), and if he did, he still wouldn't have the required knowledge of all the officers to make the right picks. And then there's the simple fact that those submarine officers can easily get out of the navy and raise their pay by 50% while not being away from home for months on end and working easy hours (as in, days rarely longer than 10 hours and rarely weekends.) So you have to both find and retain the officers you need. Everyone involved would love to have a better system, and the processes to find and retain good officers changes constantly, reflecting that desire for improvement.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    That's the admiralty's job though, it's not supposed to be easy. They are supposed to be good at it. It's not as though it's impossible or pure luck, and the stories coming out say there are warning signs there which have not been acted upon. This is OP's point. Of course you fire the captain if he grounds his ship or rams another ship. But if your fleet's captains keep running into things, the solution is not to simply keep firing them.