3 ms·

> A sampling of more advanced tricks I don't do tricks.

4ad 15y ago
I agree. I know my view is very unpopular here, but I really don't think an editor that requires that massive block of text to understand is good. I used vi (not vim) for at least 10 years. The power of ed is what makes vi powerful, but if that's all I care about, I could just use ed (especially Plan9's ed which is more GUI than your old ed). I switched a couple of years ago to acme (http://acme.cat-v.org http://acme.cat-v.org) and sam (http://sam.cat-v.org http://sam.cat-v.org). Sam is a graphical version of ed, just like vi is supposed to be but for me sam is better. It's really GUI (unlike gvim which is GUI patch on vim) and it does everything a modern ed (from Plan9) does and much more (structured regular expressions). Both editors were designed by Rob Pike and are used today by key UNIX/C figures like Ken Thompson, Bjarne Stroustrup, Dennis Ritchie and Brian Kernighan. All things considered, I'd still take vi(m)? over emacs anytime :-).
- dramaticus3 15y ago
  Funny you should say that. The screenshot here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_(text_editor) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_(text_editor) is my screen
- ez77 15y ago
  ed (especially Plan9's ed which is more GUI than your old ed). 'More GUI' because it added the b[rowse] command [1]? That's a bit of a stretch! [1] http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/ed http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/ed
  - dramaticus3 15y ago
    Perhaps he means Sam, which is a kind of GUI ed
  - 4ad 15y ago
    Ah, no, sorry. It's more GUI because Plan9 terminals allow editing everything on screen. So I can type my text in ed and then use my mouse to position the cursor somewhere up, select text, and make a change. Perhaps I should have phrased it differently, if all I cared about was ed commands I could have used Plan9's ed in conjunction with a plan9 terminal, like 9term. In UNIX I use plan9port which has a port of ed, and 9term, a terminal that acts like a Plan9 terminal.
    - dramaticus3 15y ago
      > So I can type my text in ed and then use my mouse to position the cursor somewhere up, select text, and make a change. No you can't, not in ed on Plan9.
      - p9idf 15y ago
        Sure you can. Turn on rio's hold mode.
        dramaticus3 15y ago
        Yes you can type away all you like but ed only reads commands from the prompt, just like a line orientated terminal.
        4ad 15y ago
        You cannot unread what was already read but with hold mode you can have a two-dimensional view of what you type and edit it at any point that wasn't read yet, that means since you started hold mode. > Even when there are newlines in the output text, 9term will not honor reads if the window is in hold mode [...] Some programs automatically turn on hold mode to simplify the editing of multi-line text; type ESC when done to allow mail to read the text.
- spacemanaki 15y ago
  "I really don't think an editor that requires that massive block of text to understand is good." Isn't that a bit disingenuous? From what it sounds like, you were probably able to become quickly proficient with sam and acme because you were experienced with vi and ed. It doesn't look like those editors are without any need for documentation. http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/sam/ http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/sam/
  - 4ad 15y ago
    You don't need to know ed command language and regular expressions to use sam or acme. All you need is a mouse. Knowing them would make a huge productivity boost but you can start using them gradually. Yes, you need documentation. How much though? I'd say very very little compared to traditional editors.
- mercurial 15y ago
  It's a matter of taste. Many people here prefer to use the mouse as little as possible, and from what I understand, that's not the direction sam has taken.
  - tsotha 15y ago
    Count me among the "no mouse" people. I'm a touch typist, and constantly moving my right hand back and forth to the mouse just slows everything down to an unacceptable degree.
  - 4ad 15y ago
    Exactly, mouse usage is pretty much required in Sam and Acme (and Plan9).
danparsonson 15y ago
I bet you do, though - my experience of learning anything to a reasonable depth has been that I developed short-cut ways of doing things that are necessary but laborious to a beginner. Maybe vi has a higher-than-average density of tricks due to its steep learning curve, but once you know them it's very capable.

4ad 15y ago

I agree. I know my view is very unpopular here, but I really don't think an editor that requires that massive block of text to understand is good. I used vi (not vim) for at least 10 years. The power of ed is what makes vi powerful, but if that's all I care about, I could just use ed (especially Plan9's ed which is more GUI than your old ed). I switched a couple of years ago to acme (http://acme.cat-v.org http://acme.cat-v.org) and sam (http://sam.cat-v.org http://sam.cat-v.org). Sam is a graphical version of ed, just like vi is supposed to be but for me sam is better. It's really GUI (unlike gvim which is GUI patch on vim) and it does everything a modern ed (from Plan9) does and much more (structured regular expressions). Both editors were designed by Rob Pike and are used today by key UNIX/C figures like Ken Thompson, Bjarne Stroustrup, Dennis Ritchie and Brian Kernighan. All things considered, I'd still take vi(m)? over emacs anytime :-).

dramaticus3 15y ago
Funny you should say that. The screenshot here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_(text_editor) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_(text_editor) is my screen
ez77 15y ago
ed (especially Plan9's ed which is more GUI than your old ed). 'More GUI' because it added the b[rowse] command [1]? That's a bit of a stretch! [1] http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/ed http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/ed
- dramaticus3 15y ago
  Perhaps he means Sam, which is a kind of GUI ed
- 4ad 15y ago
  Ah, no, sorry. It's more GUI because Plan9 terminals allow editing everything on screen. So I can type my text in ed and then use my mouse to position the cursor somewhere up, select text, and make a change. Perhaps I should have phrased it differently, if all I cared about was ed commands I could have used Plan9's ed in conjunction with a plan9 terminal, like 9term. In UNIX I use plan9port which has a port of ed, and 9term, a terminal that acts like a Plan9 terminal.
  - dramaticus3 15y ago
    > So I can type my text in ed and then use my mouse to position the cursor somewhere up, select text, and make a change. No you can't, not in ed on Plan9.
    - p9idf 15y ago
      Sure you can. Turn on rio's hold mode.
      - dramaticus3 15y ago
        Yes you can type away all you like but ed only reads commands from the prompt, just like a line orientated terminal.
        4ad 15y ago
        You cannot unread what was already read but with hold mode you can have a two-dimensional view of what you type and edit it at any point that wasn't read yet, that means since you started hold mode. > Even when there are newlines in the output text, 9term will not honor reads if the window is in hold mode [...] Some programs automatically turn on hold mode to simplify the editing of multi-line text; type ESC when done to allow mail to read the text.
spacemanaki 15y ago
"I really don't think an editor that requires that massive block of text to understand is good." Isn't that a bit disingenuous? From what it sounds like, you were probably able to become quickly proficient with sam and acme because you were experienced with vi and ed. It doesn't look like those editors are without any need for documentation. http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/sam/ http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/sam/
- 4ad 15y ago
  You don't need to know ed command language and regular expressions to use sam or acme. All you need is a mouse. Knowing them would make a huge productivity boost but you can start using them gradually. Yes, you need documentation. How much though? I'd say very very little compared to traditional editors.
mercurial 15y ago
It's a matter of taste. Many people here prefer to use the mouse as little as possible, and from what I understand, that's not the direction sam has taken.
- tsotha 15y ago
  Count me among the "no mouse" people. I'm a touch typist, and constantly moving my right hand back and forth to the mouse just slows everything down to an unacceptable degree.
- 4ad 15y ago
  Exactly, mouse usage is pretty much required in Sam and Acme (and Plan9).

danparsonson 15y ago

I bet you do, though - my experience of learning anything to a reasonable depth has been that I developed short-cut ways of doing things that are necessary but laborious to a beginner. Maybe vi has a higher-than-average density of tricks due to its steep learning curve, but once you know them it's very capable.