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> so maybe we need to change our thinking to include grit to stick it out as part of the math curriculum What makes you think students don't have a good idea o

> so maybe we need to change our thinking to include grit to stick it out as part of the math curriculum What makes you think students don't have a good idea of their own situation? They know best what they want, they know best how miserable it actually makes them to keep grinding though failure vs. the potential payoffs. Which isn't to say that they're right about it, individually. But on average they probably make better decisions in their circumstances, than someone else would make for them. You can't teach grit. You can at best preach it.

ryandrake 5y ago
One of the major purposes of K-12 school is to prepare kids for their future life. For the vast majority of people, life is nonstop grinding through things you don't like: Grinding a job you don't like so you can survive, grinding through traffic/commute, filling out forms, waiting in lines, paying bills. I'd almost argue the grit and persistence to keep grinding is the primary skill you need to be a baseline functional member of society and not end up broke or in prison. Even video games teach people to grind boring tasks for skill points and experience. For better or worse, it's ingrained in the fabric of society.
- vintermann 5y ago
  But I don't think it's a skill. Anyone will grind, if they feel the goal is worth it, something they really want - don't computer games prove that? It's about values, not skill. Maybe it's possible to value persistence as a good in itself, even if you're less than idealistic about the goal. But then that is not something to be taught as a skill, but something to be preached as a value, by someone who believes it and lives it.
- garbagecoder 5y ago
  This guy gets it. And life is easier when it doesn’t bother you to get shit done so much you feel like it’s a revolt.
tjs8rj 5y ago
I wasn't trying to make a controversial statement here. Whatever needs to be done to best prepare students for success is the goal, whether that's teaching them different things or simply changing the way we teach entirely.
- vintermann 5y ago
  It's not controversial. I'm the one making controversial statements, I admit, and I'm genuinely thankful that you don't just dismiss it. I just think, we can't be agnostic about what success is, what the goal is. I don't think "grit" really is a thing - if we both believed in the same things, shared the same ideas about what's important and valuable, I think we would be equally capable of the "sticking to it" part of it. But changing the way we teach won't help, because bringing people around to your set of values - whether it's convincing them that math has inherent beauty, or merely that mastering it is a great way to a lot of awesome material comforts - that isn't really teaching. It's preaching. It has to come from someone who believes it, and lives it - and is sufficiently similar to his students (or congregation!) that they can imagine themselves living it too.

ryandrake 5y ago

One of the major purposes of K-12 school is to prepare kids for their future life. For the vast majority of people, life is nonstop grinding through things you don't like: Grinding a job you don't like so you can survive, grinding through traffic/commute, filling out forms, waiting in lines, paying bills. I'd almost argue the grit and persistence to keep grinding is the primary skill you need to be a baseline functional member of society and not end up broke or in prison. Even video games teach people to grind boring tasks for skill points and experience. For better or worse, it's ingrained in the fabric of society.

vintermann 5y ago
But I don't think it's a skill. Anyone will grind, if they feel the goal is worth it, something they really want - don't computer games prove that? It's about values, not skill. Maybe it's possible to value persistence as a good in itself, even if you're less than idealistic about the goal. But then that is not something to be taught as a skill, but something to be preached as a value, by someone who believes it and lives it.
garbagecoder 5y ago
This guy gets it. And life is easier when it doesn’t bother you to get shit done so much you feel like it’s a revolt.

tjs8rj 5y ago

I wasn't trying to make a controversial statement here. Whatever needs to be done to best prepare students for success is the goal, whether that's teaching them different things or simply changing the way we teach entirely.

vintermann 5y ago
It's not controversial. I'm the one making controversial statements, I admit, and I'm genuinely thankful that you don't just dismiss it. I just think, we can't be agnostic about what success is, what the goal is. I don't think "grit" really is a thing - if we both believed in the same things, shared the same ideas about what's important and valuable, I think we would be equally capable of the "sticking to it" part of it. But changing the way we teach won't help, because bringing people around to your set of values - whether it's convincing them that math has inherent beauty, or merely that mastering it is a great way to a lot of awesome material comforts - that isn't really teaching. It's preaching. It has to come from someone who believes it, and lives it - and is sufficiently similar to his students (or congregation!) that they can imagine themselves living it too.