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Yes definitely not all Protestant sects believed in these values, they are all very different after all, but it was a common trend because they had all suffered

Yes definitely not all Protestant sects believed in these values, they are all very different after all, but it was a common trend because they had all suffered persecution. Protestants fled to America and the spirit of freedom of religion was started there, particularly in Pennsylvanian under the Quakers (where all religions including Muslims, Jews and Hindus were welcome... but not Catholics). The witch burning were started, and continued to be carried out mostly by the Catholics, but there are exceptions such as the large number that took place in Scotland. Also during the chaos and slaughter wrought by the invading Catholics, there were many cases of revenge attacks as everyone struggled for survival, but I don't know where you get the idea that it was mostly carried out by protestants. As to your other point, pacifism and pacifist groups were a rarity but that has nothing to do with freedom of ideas. The whole basis of Protestantism is that human authority has no sway over man and each individual has to find god their own way through reading and through thought. It is very clear from history that these ideas were started by the Protestants and were spread everywhere that protestants went. Just look at where in the world all the scientific breakthroughs took place over time.

qwytw 5y ago
Quakers and other similar groups were a minority and generally only had very limited influence at the time. Even in the case of North America, Puritanism had a much bigger following and well.. Puritans were not known for their openness to new ideas and in fact were as cruel to the Quakers as the Spanish Catholics were to the Jews and Muslims ("Boston martyrs"). Generally both catholics and protestants burned witches at comparable rates. Most were burned in areas where protestantism and catholicism were directly competing with each other (Germany and the surrounding areas). Luther and Calvin were both were keen on witch burning while for instance the dreaded spanish inquisition did not even officially recognize the existence of witchcraft (the number of people executed in spain is generally low compared to most major protestant countries and almost all there were convicted by secular courts rather than the inquisition). When given free reign, Calvin in this attempt to turn Geneva into a ideal puritan state he created dystopian theocracy, not any less oppressive than almost all Catholic states at the time. Generally the ideas you're describing were formed by humanists like Petrarch, Erasmus, Bruni etc. (who were all catholic) prior to the spread of protestantism, while they were embraced by some protestant groups, they were mainly further developed by (mostly) secular enlightenment philosophers (most of whom again were from Catholic countries). Most breakthroughs happened in places were people first embraced secularism and stopped taking organized religion too seriously (I agree that this was more likely to happen in Protestant countries but mainly because less organized and smaller protestant churches tended to be weaker and easier to ignore than the catholic church).
- mrjangles 5y ago
  you raise some good points. For example the Puritans caused as much suffering for the English under Cromwell as the Church of England did to the Puritans in return...but I feel something is missing from your discussion. I am not claiming there is something in the bible that made protestants more peaceful. I'm not saying they weren't as prone to religious fervor as others. I'm saying it was something in their attitude of intellectualism, and their refusal to defer to authority that allowed humanity to move forward. Almost all Scientific and engineering breakthroughs in that period happened in Scotland, Netherlands, England, and Germany. This isn't a coincidence. Only after the French revolution and the rise of secularism did the former Catholic world begin to take part in the scientific revolution. Also, because of the persecution in England and elsewhere, many fled to America and while one can always find examples to the contrary, the fact remains that the separation of church and state in America was pretty much welcomed by all, and it was specifically because of what the people who lived there had learned about religious persecution and how those in power use such persecution for their own ends. In fact, such a situation, with an entire country of deeply religious people all agreeing to restrict the power of religion, is so extraordinary that you can't simply dismiss it. Clearly extraordinary circumstances existed at the time for this to occur, and this needs to be explained.
  - qwytw 5y ago
    > Almost all Scientific and engineering breakthroughs in that period happened in Scotland, Netherlands, England, and Germany. Again I'm not sure that's accurate, was Britain really that much ahead before the second half of the 18th century? Copernicus, Galileo, Pascal, Torricelli, Lavoisier, Volta all had a Catholic background. Even the steam turbine was (according to some) invented in Italy by Giovanni Branca in 1645, however since there was no easily accessible coal in Italy the industrial revolution could not have started regardless of their religion. While in general I don't want to fully dismiss the whole concept of 'protestant work ethic', the success of England, the Netherlands (the low countries were already the most prosperous region in Europe before the reformation even started) and later Prussia can be better explained by their political, legal & economic systems, their geographic location and (in the case of England) access to natural resources rather than their religion. While I would concede that protestantism had a generally non negative effect on work ethic. Positive attitude towards intellectualism is not something unique to protestants. The tradition of what we consider to 'modern intellectualism' was born in renaissance Italy. It was continuously developed by catholic philosophers, scientists and organizations (e.g. the Jesuits) over the upcoming centuries. While dogmatism and negative attitude towards scientific progress was widespread in catholic countries, the Puritans(again) (and most hardline protestants) were generally anti-intellectual. However one thing protestants were ahead in was literacy, while generally it was not necessarily promoted due to their positive attitude towards intellectualism (it's not like devout protestants really need to read anything besides the bible and business ledgers) it overall still likely had a significant positive effect. > In fact, such a situation, with an entire country of deeply religious people all agreeing to restrict the power of religion, is so extraordinary that you can't simply dismiss it The political elite of the US during the War of Independence was remarkably irreligious (at least compared to the previous and future generations). Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Hamilton, John Adams etc. were all either outright critical of organized religion or basically just ignored it. Americans generally became more religious in the first half of the 19th century (as a result of the "Second Great Awakening").

qwytw 5y ago

Quakers and other similar groups were a minority and generally only had very limited influence at the time. Even in the case of North America, Puritanism had a much bigger following and well.. Puritans were not known for their openness to new ideas and in fact were as cruel to the Quakers as the Spanish Catholics were to the Jews and Muslims ("Boston martyrs"). Generally both catholics and protestants burned witches at comparable rates. Most were burned in areas where protestantism and catholicism were directly competing with each other (Germany and the surrounding areas). Luther and Calvin were both were keen on witch burning while for instance the dreaded spanish inquisition did not even officially recognize the existence of witchcraft (the number of people executed in spain is generally low compared to most major protestant countries and almost all there were convicted by secular courts rather than the inquisition). When given free reign, Calvin in this attempt to turn Geneva into a ideal puritan state he created dystopian theocracy, not any less oppressive than almost all Catholic states at the time. Generally the ideas you're describing were formed by humanists like Petrarch, Erasmus, Bruni etc. (who were all catholic) prior to the spread of protestantism, while they were embraced by some protestant groups, they were mainly further developed by (mostly) secular enlightenment philosophers (most of whom again were from Catholic countries). Most breakthroughs happened in places were people first embraced secularism and stopped taking organized religion too seriously (I agree that this was more likely to happen in Protestant countries but mainly because less organized and smaller protestant churches tended to be weaker and easier to ignore than the catholic church).

mrjangles 5y ago
you raise some good points. For example the Puritans caused as much suffering for the English under Cromwell as the Church of England did to the Puritans in return...but I feel something is missing from your discussion. I am not claiming there is something in the bible that made protestants more peaceful. I'm not saying they weren't as prone to religious fervor as others. I'm saying it was something in their attitude of intellectualism, and their refusal to defer to authority that allowed humanity to move forward. Almost all Scientific and engineering breakthroughs in that period happened in Scotland, Netherlands, England, and Germany. This isn't a coincidence. Only after the French revolution and the rise of secularism did the former Catholic world begin to take part in the scientific revolution. Also, because of the persecution in England and elsewhere, many fled to America and while one can always find examples to the contrary, the fact remains that the separation of church and state in America was pretty much welcomed by all, and it was specifically because of what the people who lived there had learned about religious persecution and how those in power use such persecution for their own ends. In fact, such a situation, with an entire country of deeply religious people all agreeing to restrict the power of religion, is so extraordinary that you can't simply dismiss it. Clearly extraordinary circumstances existed at the time for this to occur, and this needs to be explained.
- qwytw 5y ago
  > Almost all Scientific and engineering breakthroughs in that period happened in Scotland, Netherlands, England, and Germany. Again I'm not sure that's accurate, was Britain really that much ahead before the second half of the 18th century? Copernicus, Galileo, Pascal, Torricelli, Lavoisier, Volta all had a Catholic background. Even the steam turbine was (according to some) invented in Italy by Giovanni Branca in 1645, however since there was no easily accessible coal in Italy the industrial revolution could not have started regardless of their religion. While in general I don't want to fully dismiss the whole concept of 'protestant work ethic', the success of England, the Netherlands (the low countries were already the most prosperous region in Europe before the reformation even started) and later Prussia can be better explained by their political, legal & economic systems, their geographic location and (in the case of England) access to natural resources rather than their religion. While I would concede that protestantism had a generally non negative effect on work ethic. Positive attitude towards intellectualism is not something unique to protestants. The tradition of what we consider to 'modern intellectualism' was born in renaissance Italy. It was continuously developed by catholic philosophers, scientists and organizations (e.g. the Jesuits) over the upcoming centuries. While dogmatism and negative attitude towards scientific progress was widespread in catholic countries, the Puritans(again) (and most hardline protestants) were generally anti-intellectual. However one thing protestants were ahead in was literacy, while generally it was not necessarily promoted due to their positive attitude towards intellectualism (it's not like devout protestants really need to read anything besides the bible and business ledgers) it overall still likely had a significant positive effect. > In fact, such a situation, with an entire country of deeply religious people all agreeing to restrict the power of religion, is so extraordinary that you can't simply dismiss it The political elite of the US during the War of Independence was remarkably irreligious (at least compared to the previous and future generations). Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Hamilton, John Adams etc. were all either outright critical of organized religion or basically just ignored it. Americans generally became more religious in the first half of the 19th century (as a result of the "Second Great Awakening").