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It’s absurd that Japan despite being such a developed country still has the capital punishment.

xvilka 5y ago
There's also a problem of human trafficking[1]. Biggest developed country at that. [1] https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-trafficking-in-persons-report/japan/ https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-trafficking-in-persons-re...
endisneigh 5y ago
Is it the capital punishment that you have a problem with or the (potentially inherent) uncertainty in deciding if someone is guilty or not? (for what it's worth I'm against capital punishment)
- ginko 5y ago
  Capital punishment is just barbaric. It's the state committing planned murder.
  - vadfa 5y ago
    Some societies have determined that some people have commited such abominable deeds that they simply no longer have a right to live. Doesn't sound very barbaric to me.
    - tluyben2 5y ago
      It is if people are innocent and in a lot of cases you simply cannot be 100% sure. That is enough for it to be barbaric.
      - spywaregorilla 5y ago
        So what if you are 100% sure and the bar is absolute certainty vs. reasonable certainty
        ginko 5y ago
        It'd argue the state should still not stoop down to the level of they people they're killing.
        jackorange 5y ago
        If someone is intent on committing crime. Say a serial killer who has killed many people, then while incarcerated continues attempting to attack and kill guards and other inmates, you would say this person should not be killed? I feel that your view is not realistic. The goal of executing criminals is not to punish them like "haha, we got you", it's to physically prevent them from continuing to cause chaos.
        ginko 5y ago
        So put them into high security or solitary confinement. You call that unrealistic, but it's handled like that in tons of places all over the world.
        jackorange 5y ago
        In high security and solitary confinement there are guards that will have to deal with them, and the inmates are afforded rights like visitation or recreation where they can gain contraband, make shanks, extort and assault inmates and other guards. Inmates will pretend to or legitimately damage the cell or themselves to get guard attention and then assault the guards. Study these issues further and you will find it's not simply a matter of putting someone in a single cell by themselves and now that's it, they can never harm anyone again. There are elaborate criminal schemes that occur inside of correctional institutions. Eventually, society will have exhausted every recourse in attempting to accommodate this person, and I say not to be sarcastic, but to present you something to think about, would you welcome a known serial killer into your home since you are so against killing them and there's no place left to put them? How much do you expect others to suffer and sacrifice for one criminal and your own perceived social justice?
        vadfa 5y ago
    - SiempreViernes 5y ago
      If you decide that anything some society has determined to be acceptable, you'll not find very many things to call barbaric. Certainly you'll find no cultures which engage in barbaric behaviour, which is ironic since the original meaning was basically "anyone who isn't Greek". To hold that no culture is barbaric can be seen as a very enlightened position, but it is of course also a position that does not provide any moral guidance at all with respect to established customs, such as for example Kaluli manhood rituals where the young boys must ingest the sperm of their elders by the Anus (a practice much reviled by the nearby Etoro who instead prescribe oral ingestion).
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      Some other societies determined that disabled people are a drain on their limited resources and "simply no longer have a right to live". That still sounds barbaric to me. The fact that a majority might decide to not grant fundamental rights to a minority doesn't make their killings any less barbaric. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_unworthy_of_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_unworthy_of_life
      - Ekaros 5y ago
        How many millions or billions or trillions should we spend to extend let's say clinically brain-dead person's life? Is there no limit when we should stop? Should we take the money away from some other things like welfare, or food from the starving? Just so we can keep single brain dead person a live for a few more days? Even if that would cost millions?
        dane-pgp 5y ago
        The question is not "how many trillions should we spend on keeping someone alive" but "how much money should we spend on deliberately, actively killing someone", to which the answer is "zero". (I don't mean to downplay the fact that there are difficult questions for working out how much money a government should invest to add one quality-adjusted life-year to their citizens, or how to calculate QALYs in the first place, but governments do manage to do that and these questions are not the level that political controversies generally focus on. Also, I'm completely ignoring the issue of national defence here, as people can disagree on military posture based on other considerations).
      - falcolas 5y ago
        Conflating convicted murderers with disabled people is exceptionally disingenuous.
        dane-pgp 5y ago
        I'm "conflating" them because they share the same essential characteristic of being human beings.
  - hyproxia 5y ago
    So you think that locking up people for the rest of their lives is less barbaric?
    - ginko 5y ago
      Yes
    - xfitm3 5y ago
      And forcing law abiding citizens to foot the bill.
      - Frondo 5y ago
        Boy, if paying to keep people imprisoned upsets you, wait til you see how much we law abiding citizens have to pay when the state fucks up and locks up the wrong person. Philly just paid nearly $10 million to some guy they'd wrongfully imprisoned for nearly 30 years.
      - josefx 5y ago
        If justice was about money it would be cheaper to just shoot anyone accused of being a pick pocket, heck the cop should just shoot the accuser twice to make sure his costly time isn't wasted again. Not to forget bill the families for the bullets.
        hyproxia 5y ago
        > it would be cheaper to just shoot Ah, no, that's not how this works.
      - tallanvor 5y ago
        If you want to save taxpayer money, then you should be advocating for an end to the death penalty. Sentencing a person to death ends up costing significantly more than life imprisonment. https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/death-penalty/death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost/ https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/death-penalty/death-penalt...
  - clavicat 5y ago
    No, it’s society saying that the social contract is a two-way street and that if you violate your most basic obligations as a human to your fellow man, society has no obligation to you. Feel free to disagree, but it’s not just murder for the sake of it.
docdeek 5y ago
Of the 66 states categorized as 'very high' in the 2020 Human Development Index 12 (including Japan) use the death penalty, another 5 have it on the books but are currently in moratorium, and another 2 réserve it only for crimes committed in times of war. That's 19/66, more than a 1/4 of the most developed states (and still nearly 1/5 if you exclude the moratorium and wartime-only states). Japan is far from alone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
- I-M-S 5y ago
  That's 12/66
  - ARandomerDude 5y ago
    12/66 = 1/5.5, or > still nearly 1/5 if you exclude the moratorium and wartime-only states
- yokaze 5y ago
  And among those twelve countries you have: United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Oman, Belarus, Kuwait, Qatar Personally, I would prefer my country not to be in same exclusive club .
- belorn 5y ago
  Looking at the map there seems to be a distinct patterns in term of cultures. Interestingly, wealth doesn't seem to be a factor.
post_break 5y ago
Japan is the biggest example of saving face I've ever seen. Incredible racism, justice system with 99% conviction rate, going right up to the edge of porn, but then blurring it out, gambling being illegal but not really at the same time, working until death.
- ekianjo 5y ago
  Maybe your news sources are a little biased.
ekianjo 5y ago
> It’s absurd that Japan despite being such a developed country Wait until you hear about a small country called China

There's also a problem of human trafficking[1]. Biggest developed country at that. [1] https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-trafficking-in-persons-report/japan/ https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-trafficking-in-persons-re...

endisneigh 5y ago

Is it the capital punishment that you have a problem with or the (potentially inherent) uncertainty in deciding if someone is guilty or not? (for what it's worth I'm against capital punishment)

ginko 5y ago
Capital punishment is just barbaric. It's the state committing planned murder.
- vadfa 5y ago
  Some societies have determined that some people have commited such abominable deeds that they simply no longer have a right to live. Doesn't sound very barbaric to me.
  - tluyben2 5y ago
    It is if people are innocent and in a lot of cases you simply cannot be 100% sure. That is enough for it to be barbaric.
    - spywaregorilla 5y ago
      So what if you are 100% sure and the bar is absolute certainty vs. reasonable certainty
      - ginko 5y ago
        It'd argue the state should still not stoop down to the level of they people they're killing.
        jackorange 5y ago
        If someone is intent on committing crime. Say a serial killer who has killed many people, then while incarcerated continues attempting to attack and kill guards and other inmates, you would say this person should not be killed? I feel that your view is not realistic. The goal of executing criminals is not to punish them like "haha, we got you", it's to physically prevent them from continuing to cause chaos.
        ginko 5y ago
        So put them into high security or solitary confinement. You call that unrealistic, but it's handled like that in tons of places all over the world.
        jackorange 5y ago
        In high security and solitary confinement there are guards that will have to deal with them, and the inmates are afforded rights like visitation or recreation where they can gain contraband, make shanks, extort and assault inmates and other guards. Inmates will pretend to or legitimately damage the cell or themselves to get guard attention and then assault the guards. Study these issues further and you will find it's not simply a matter of putting someone in a single cell by themselves and now that's it, they can never harm anyone again. There are elaborate criminal schemes that occur inside of correctional institutions. Eventually, society will have exhausted every recourse in attempting to accommodate this person, and I say not to be sarcastic, but to present you something to think about, would you welcome a known serial killer into your home since you are so against killing them and there's no place left to put them? How much do you expect others to suffer and sacrifice for one criminal and your own perceived social justice?
        vadfa 5y ago
  - SiempreViernes 5y ago
    If you decide that anything some society has determined to be acceptable, you'll not find very many things to call barbaric. Certainly you'll find no cultures which engage in barbaric behaviour, which is ironic since the original meaning was basically "anyone who isn't Greek". To hold that no culture is barbaric can be seen as a very enlightened position, but it is of course also a position that does not provide any moral guidance at all with respect to established customs, such as for example Kaluli manhood rituals where the young boys must ingest the sperm of their elders by the Anus (a practice much reviled by the nearby Etoro who instead prescribe oral ingestion).
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    Some other societies determined that disabled people are a drain on their limited resources and "simply no longer have a right to live". That still sounds barbaric to me. The fact that a majority might decide to not grant fundamental rights to a minority doesn't make their killings any less barbaric. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_unworthy_of_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_unworthy_of_life
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      How many millions or billions or trillions should we spend to extend let's say clinically brain-dead person's life? Is there no limit when we should stop? Should we take the money away from some other things like welfare, or food from the starving? Just so we can keep single brain dead person a live for a few more days? Even if that would cost millions?
      - dane-pgp 5y ago
        The question is not "how many trillions should we spend on keeping someone alive" but "how much money should we spend on deliberately, actively killing someone", to which the answer is "zero". (I don't mean to downplay the fact that there are difficult questions for working out how much money a government should invest to add one quality-adjusted life-year to their citizens, or how to calculate QALYs in the first place, but governments do manage to do that and these questions are not the level that political controversies generally focus on. Also, I'm completely ignoring the issue of national defence here, as people can disagree on military posture based on other considerations).
    - falcolas 5y ago
      Conflating convicted murderers with disabled people is exceptionally disingenuous.
      - dane-pgp 5y ago
        I'm "conflating" them because they share the same essential characteristic of being human beings.
- hyproxia 5y ago
  So you think that locking up people for the rest of their lives is less barbaric?
  - ginko 5y ago
    Yes
  - xfitm3 5y ago
    And forcing law abiding citizens to foot the bill.
    - Frondo 5y ago
      Boy, if paying to keep people imprisoned upsets you, wait til you see how much we law abiding citizens have to pay when the state fucks up and locks up the wrong person. Philly just paid nearly $10 million to some guy they'd wrongfully imprisoned for nearly 30 years.
    - josefx 5y ago
      If justice was about money it would be cheaper to just shoot anyone accused of being a pick pocket, heck the cop should just shoot the accuser twice to make sure his costly time isn't wasted again. Not to forget bill the families for the bullets.
      - hyproxia 5y ago
        > it would be cheaper to just shoot Ah, no, that's not how this works.
    - tallanvor 5y ago
      If you want to save taxpayer money, then you should be advocating for an end to the death penalty. Sentencing a person to death ends up costing significantly more than life imprisonment. https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/death-penalty/death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost/ https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/death-penalty/death-penalt...
- clavicat 5y ago
  No, it’s society saying that the social contract is a two-way street and that if you violate your most basic obligations as a human to your fellow man, society has no obligation to you. Feel free to disagree, but it’s not just murder for the sake of it.

docdeek 5y ago

Of the 66 states categorized as 'very high' in the 2020 Human Development Index 12 (including Japan) use the death penalty, another 5 have it on the books but are currently in moratorium, and another 2 réserve it only for crimes committed in times of war. That's 19/66, more than a 1/4 of the most developed states (and still nearly 1/5 if you exclude the moratorium and wartime-only states). Japan is far from alone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country

I-M-S 5y ago
That's 12/66
- ARandomerDude 5y ago
  12/66 = 1/5.5, or > still nearly 1/5 if you exclude the moratorium and wartime-only states
yokaze 5y ago
And among those twelve countries you have: United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Oman, Belarus, Kuwait, Qatar Personally, I would prefer my country not to be in same exclusive club .
belorn 5y ago
Looking at the map there seems to be a distinct patterns in term of cultures. Interestingly, wealth doesn't seem to be a factor.

post_break 5y ago

Japan is the biggest example of saving face I've ever seen. Incredible racism, justice system with 99% conviction rate, going right up to the edge of porn, but then blurring it out, gambling being illegal but not really at the same time, working until death.

ekianjo 5y ago
Maybe your news sources are a little biased.

ekianjo 5y ago

> It’s absurd that Japan despite being such a developed country Wait until you hear about a small country called China