7 ms·

Apple’s $13k operating system (2013)

140 points by jdblair 5y ago

jdougan 5y ago
Somewhere in my library I have a copy of "Beneath Apple DOS" which was a detailed documentation of how Apple DOS wss structured, on-disk formats, etc. It has been awhile but I recall being impressed at how clean and reusable the DOS was. An excellent book if you have an interest in retrocomputing and it apoears to be available as a scanned PDF if you google a bit.
- codetrotter 5y ago
  Found a couple of books on archive.org, are either of these the one? https://archive.org/details/beneath-apple-dos-prodos-2020 https://archive.org/details/beneath-apple-dos-prodos-2020 https://archive.org/details/Beneath_Apple_DOS_OCR https://archive.org/details/Beneath_Apple_DOS_OCR
  - homarp 5y ago
    and if you want to buy the 2020 remastered edition: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&contributor=Don+Worth&page=1&pageSize=10 https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&contrib...
  - jdougan 5y ago
    Yes, mine is the second one that has Issac Newton sitting on a floppy drive. It is for DOS 3.3. It came with a ring binding whose plastic fell apart after a few years.
- kkylin 5y ago
  Hey! I still have my copy of Beneath Apple ProDOS. Much more complicated beast.
  - djmips 5y ago
    more but not much more.
dawkins 5y ago
Great read. They wrote a DOS in 35 days using punch cards. Amazing.
- xattt 5y ago
  Are there modern-day examples of impressive bootstrapping? APFS comes to mind.
  - nom 5y ago
    maybe Minecraft?
  - jason-phillips 5y ago
    > Are there modern-day examples of impressive bootstrapping? JavaScript and Brendan Eich may be considered modernish-day.
    - emptyparadise 5y ago
      Would be quite poetic if that was the last example.
  - zerr 5y ago
    First Pascal compiler was written in Pascal and hand-compiled to machine code.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      And P-Code was never meant for an interpreter, Niklaus Wirth originally created it to ease the bootstrapping of Pascal into other systems, it was UCSD that made it popular beyond the original goal.
  - drno123 5y ago
    Maybe git, and JavaScript?
- jonsen 5y ago
anonymouse008 5y ago
This article correctly assigns the key to success for all major technology paradigms — a “VisiCalc” VR, AR, and Blockchain currently miss this value by a wide margin. If you think about it, that’s absolutely bonkers. Take VR/AR - a tech literally meant to create new worlds, remove the need to physically mold space into form a la Disneyland/world, and has become ultra portable where the supporting infrastructure is now all in headset… But where is the absolute vital need? VisiCalc wasn’t just convenient (by replacing literal square feet of paper with a digital screen - removing the time to draft a new sheet), it was essential to financial survival for basically everyone (one error in a 100 cell, hand calculated budget could kill a company or lop net worth, or being able to add 100 cells in 1/10th the time could reveal opportunity , this is the age of “balancing a checkbook”). So even with VR/AR’s infinite space, how does it keep companies from dying and create new possibilities? The current state of the art as described here was Disneyland and extreme training environments — but how do those things make or break companies? Oil and gas literally uses an MBA four grid system to triage accidents… they already have a relatedly equal solution for training: handle the errors. Long winded way of saying I love this article and look for opportunities like this in everyday life.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  That's, to me, one big problem of tech. It's jumped shark in many ways. Mainstream computing influenced by previous eras makes no sense. People don't need tools like companies since the 50s. It's another soil entirely. To an extent I even consider (pardon the following exaggeration) the mainstream computer market a fluffy distraction.. when I was a kid, my parents bought me a desktop. To do what ? office tasks at home. It was amazing, writing document on a screen, printing them in color. So cute, but it has no value anymore. It was just a twist on "you too now have access to big boys toys". Availability and all that. My brain cannot consider that we're selling sub watt pocket super computers so that people can whine on twitter or swipe pictures. I know some use are seriously useful, but it's becoming absurd to push things further to me. It's bubbly.
  - WanderPanda 5y ago
    > so that people can whine on twitter Whining on HN is virtuous, though?
TomMasz 5y ago
Make sure you read this all the way to end. It made me chuckle, and not just a little.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mariodiana 5y ago
> It "was written on punch cards. It was put into a minicomputer and assembled, and the output was paper-taped. Then we proceeded to debug it." Relying on the luxury of continuous, near-instant type-checking and so forth, I read this and want to hang my head in shame.
dang 5y ago
One past thread: The untold story behind Apple's $13,000 operating system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15632674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15632674 - Nov 2017 (20 comments)

140 points by jdblair 5y ago

Somewhere in my library I have a copy of "Beneath Apple DOS" which was a detailed documentation of how Apple DOS wss structured, on-disk formats, etc. It has been awhile but I recall being impressed at how clean and reusable the DOS was. An excellent book if you have an interest in retrocomputing and it apoears to be available as a scanned PDF if you google a bit.

codetrotter 5y ago
Found a couple of books on archive.org, are either of these the one? https://archive.org/details/beneath-apple-dos-prodos-2020 https://archive.org/details/beneath-apple-dos-prodos-2020 https://archive.org/details/Beneath_Apple_DOS_OCR https://archive.org/details/Beneath_Apple_DOS_OCR
- homarp 5y ago
  and if you want to buy the 2020 remastered edition: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&contributor=Don+Worth&page=1&pageSize=10 https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&contrib...
- jdougan 5y ago
  Yes, mine is the second one that has Issac Newton sitting on a floppy drive. It is for DOS 3.3. It came with a ring binding whose plastic fell apart after a few years.
kkylin 5y ago
Hey! I still have my copy of Beneath Apple ProDOS. Much more complicated beast.
- djmips 5y ago
  more but not much more.

dawkins 5y ago

Great read. They wrote a DOS in 35 days using punch cards. Amazing.

xattt 5y ago
Are there modern-day examples of impressive bootstrapping? APFS comes to mind.
- nom 5y ago
  maybe Minecraft?
- jason-phillips 5y ago
  > Are there modern-day examples of impressive bootstrapping? JavaScript and Brendan Eich may be considered modernish-day.
  - emptyparadise 5y ago
    Would be quite poetic if that was the last example.
- zerr 5y ago
  First Pascal compiler was written in Pascal and hand-compiled to machine code.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    And P-Code was never meant for an interpreter, Niklaus Wirth originally created it to ease the bootstrapping of Pascal into other systems, it was UCSD that made it popular beyond the original goal.
- drno123 5y ago
  Maybe git, and JavaScript?
jonsen 5y ago

anonymouse008 5y ago

This article correctly assigns the key to success for all major technology paradigms — a “VisiCalc” VR, AR, and Blockchain currently miss this value by a wide margin. If you think about it, that’s absolutely bonkers. Take VR/AR - a tech literally meant to create new worlds, remove the need to physically mold space into form a la Disneyland/world, and has become ultra portable where the supporting infrastructure is now all in headset… But where is the absolute vital need? VisiCalc wasn’t just convenient (by replacing literal square feet of paper with a digital screen - removing the time to draft a new sheet), it was essential to financial survival for basically everyone (one error in a 100 cell, hand calculated budget could kill a company or lop net worth, or being able to add 100 cells in 1/10th the time could reveal opportunity , this is the age of “balancing a checkbook”). So even with VR/AR’s infinite space, how does it keep companies from dying and create new possibilities? The current state of the art as described here was Disneyland and extreme training environments — but how do those things make or break companies? Oil and gas literally uses an MBA four grid system to triage accidents… they already have a relatedly equal solution for training: handle the errors. Long winded way of saying I love this article and look for opportunities like this in everyday life.

agumonkey 5y ago
That's, to me, one big problem of tech. It's jumped shark in many ways. Mainstream computing influenced by previous eras makes no sense. People don't need tools like companies since the 50s. It's another soil entirely. To an extent I even consider (pardon the following exaggeration) the mainstream computer market a fluffy distraction.. when I was a kid, my parents bought me a desktop. To do what ? office tasks at home. It was amazing, writing document on a screen, printing them in color. So cute, but it has no value anymore. It was just a twist on "you too now have access to big boys toys". Availability and all that. My brain cannot consider that we're selling sub watt pocket super computers so that people can whine on twitter or swipe pictures. I know some use are seriously useful, but it's becoming absurd to push things further to me. It's bubbly.
- WanderPanda 5y ago
  > so that people can whine on twitter Whining on HN is virtuous, though?

TomMasz 5y ago

Make sure you read this all the way to end. It made me chuckle, and not just a little.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

mariodiana 5y ago

> It "was written on punch cards. It was put into a minicomputer and assembled, and the output was paper-taped. Then we proceeded to debug it." Relying on the luxury of continuous, near-instant type-checking and so forth, I read this and want to hang my head in shame.

dang 5y ago

One past thread: The untold story behind Apple's $13,000 operating system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15632674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15632674 - Nov 2017 (20 comments)