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That Electric Car’s Not as Green as You Think

15 points by Ambolia 5y ago

Randy_marsh 5y ago
Paywalled, so cannot read the article but as this is an "opinion piece" I suspect it's more gaslighting. The fact remains that while EV's are not 100% perfect in every conceivable way, they do improve upon ICE vehicles in virtually every way. Major issues regarding supply chain of batteries are improving with new battery technology like cobalt-free LFP chemistry. The battery recycling and "second life" battery industry is gradually maturing and technologies like Smart Charging and V2G promise to have a major impact helping to modernize the electrical grid as well as improve the conditions for more renewable energy by matching charging times to variable availability of green energy.
- abc_lisper 5y ago
  Reader mode on the article reveals the content. Your answer is on point though. WSJ a few months published a piece saying that electric cars have to run 20k miles before they take over ICE vehicles in emissions(less that is). This piece is just scaremongering though. It keeps on repeating in several ways that making electric vehicles is energy intensive
  - c-swa 5y ago
    Which is also kind of funny, considering I know people who’ve bought electric cars new and used- they’ve all surpassed 20k miles at a year and a half- two years. Most gas powered cars go well beyond 20k miles, and that would easily and dramatically increase their emissions.
    - abc_lisper 5y ago
      Yeah, not to mention electric cars are going to be made with even less energy like cold pressing the entire chassis from a sheet of metal, higher density batteries and recycling older batteries, where as gas cars have been the same in terms of mpg.
- Ambolia 5y ago
  >Paywalled, so cannot read the article It should work in Incognito mode.
he0001 5y ago
Even if the battery and the car’s components are not environment friendly, it must be better to have the emissions centrally than to have them at each individual car. It’s obviously much harder to control omissions from a single car (not considering blanket ban of cars) than from a factory. It’s also far easier to regulate and control a factory than controlling what people actually does.
bguebert 5y ago
https://archive.md/XrdOm https://archive.md/XrdOm
thatfrenchguy 5y ago
What you want to look at is CO2 emitted per km/mile, and electric cars are usually quite a bit better: https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore . Obviously there's a lot of challenges: having a grid that can sustain fast charging on peak times for holidays is really non trivial for examples. And obviously, less cars and less car mileages is better, just like no matter what the insulation it's better that people live in smaller places.
- Valgrim 5y ago
  What you actually want to look at is a full cradle-to-grave life-cycle assessment. In this regard, an electric car is about an order of magnitude better than an ICE car, but it's also much much worse than no car at all.
marocan 5y ago
Electric cars are good in another way also: - they force building nuclear power plants to sustain the grid * china said will build 150 new nuclear power plants ( west will copy just as they copied the lockdown policy :))
tinalumfoil 5y ago
WSJ has an article a while back comparing emissions from electric vs gas vehicles over the life of the car [0]. It's graphic-heavy so you'll get something out of it even you just scroll. I don't know what I should be getting out of this article. Cars require energy and materials to make? I think I knew that. I wish this article made bolder claims about EVs not being green instead of implying and hand-waving. Because than maybe I could refute it. Electric cars are better for the environment, given any reasonable parameters of the average driver, and that's something people should know. [0] https://www.wsj.com/graphics/are-electric-cars-really-better-for-the-environment/ https://www.wsj.com/graphics/are-electric-cars-really-better... https://archive.md/DbtZs https://archive.md/DbtZs
- irthomasthomas 5y ago
  I thought the point of the bloomberg article was that car emissions are only half the story? More c02 is made in the manufacturing of the car than is made in emissions during the life of the car. And EVs are worse here due to the high carbon cost of the batteries. So if all you care about is net carbon, then it is better to stick with your current car, whatever that may be. Now personally I dont like exhaust emissions from ICE cars. People living near busy roads have more health problems and a shorter life expectancy. However, my choice would be to get rid of private cars alltogether, not shift the pollution to another region. When I am king, I will start by enforcing a 1 car per household limit, except those with special needs. And eventually replace all private cars with EV public transport and bikes.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    >More c02 is made in the manufacturing of the car than is made in emissions during the life of the car. Everything I've seen says that isn't the case, that by about 50,000 miles you are in the black compared to an ICE. I tend to agree with your second point though. If you are really serious about your environmental impact then bikes are the way to go.
    - irthomasthomas 5y ago
kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
That’s a low quality article. A chart about one part of the overall effect of a car, a random jab at Apple, some exaggeration (doom! Shadowy private hands!) then wrap things up with a “need more info.” Oh brother.

15 points by Ambolia 5y ago

Paywalled, so cannot read the article but as this is an "opinion piece" I suspect it's more gaslighting. The fact remains that while EV's are not 100% perfect in every conceivable way, they do improve upon ICE vehicles in virtually every way. Major issues regarding supply chain of batteries are improving with new battery technology like cobalt-free LFP chemistry. The battery recycling and "second life" battery industry is gradually maturing and technologies like Smart Charging and V2G promise to have a major impact helping to modernize the electrical grid as well as improve the conditions for more renewable energy by matching charging times to variable availability of green energy.

abc_lisper 5y ago
Reader mode on the article reveals the content. Your answer is on point though. WSJ a few months published a piece saying that electric cars have to run 20k miles before they take over ICE vehicles in emissions(less that is). This piece is just scaremongering though. It keeps on repeating in several ways that making electric vehicles is energy intensive
- c-swa 5y ago
  Which is also kind of funny, considering I know people who’ve bought electric cars new and used- they’ve all surpassed 20k miles at a year and a half- two years. Most gas powered cars go well beyond 20k miles, and that would easily and dramatically increase their emissions.
  - abc_lisper 5y ago
    Yeah, not to mention electric cars are going to be made with even less energy like cold pressing the entire chassis from a sheet of metal, higher density batteries and recycling older batteries, where as gas cars have been the same in terms of mpg.
Ambolia 5y ago
>Paywalled, so cannot read the article It should work in Incognito mode.

he0001 5y ago

Even if the battery and the car’s components are not environment friendly, it must be better to have the emissions centrally than to have them at each individual car. It’s obviously much harder to control omissions from a single car (not considering blanket ban of cars) than from a factory. It’s also far easier to regulate and control a factory than controlling what people actually does.

bguebert 5y ago

https://archive.md/XrdOm https://archive.md/XrdOm

thatfrenchguy 5y ago

What you want to look at is CO2 emitted per km/mile, and electric cars are usually quite a bit better: https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore . Obviously there's a lot of challenges: having a grid that can sustain fast charging on peak times for holidays is really non trivial for examples. And obviously, less cars and less car mileages is better, just like no matter what the insulation it's better that people live in smaller places.

Valgrim 5y ago
What you actually want to look at is a full cradle-to-grave life-cycle assessment. In this regard, an electric car is about an order of magnitude better than an ICE car, but it's also much much worse than no car at all.

marocan 5y ago

Electric cars are good in another way also: - they force building nuclear power plants to sustain the grid * china said will build 150 new nuclear power plants ( west will copy just as they copied the lockdown policy :))

tinalumfoil 5y ago

WSJ has an article a while back comparing emissions from electric vs gas vehicles over the life of the car [0]. It's graphic-heavy so you'll get something out of it even you just scroll. I don't know what I should be getting out of this article. Cars require energy and materials to make? I think I knew that. I wish this article made bolder claims about EVs not being green instead of implying and hand-waving. Because than maybe I could refute it. Electric cars are better for the environment, given any reasonable parameters of the average driver, and that's something people should know. [0] https://www.wsj.com/graphics/are-electric-cars-really-better-for-the-environment/ https://www.wsj.com/graphics/are-electric-cars-really-better... https://archive.md/DbtZs https://archive.md/DbtZs

irthomasthomas 5y ago
I thought the point of the bloomberg article was that car emissions are only half the story? More c02 is made in the manufacturing of the car than is made in emissions during the life of the car. And EVs are worse here due to the high carbon cost of the batteries. So if all you care about is net carbon, then it is better to stick with your current car, whatever that may be. Now personally I dont like exhaust emissions from ICE cars. People living near busy roads have more health problems and a shorter life expectancy. However, my choice would be to get rid of private cars alltogether, not shift the pollution to another region. When I am king, I will start by enforcing a 1 car per household limit, except those with special needs. And eventually replace all private cars with EV public transport and bikes.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  >More c02 is made in the manufacturing of the car than is made in emissions during the life of the car. Everything I've seen says that isn't the case, that by about 50,000 miles you are in the black compared to an ICE. I tend to agree with your second point though. If you are really serious about your environmental impact then bikes are the way to go.
  - irthomasthomas 5y ago

kwertyoowiyop 5y ago

That’s a low quality article. A chart about one part of the overall effect of a car, a random jab at Apple, some exaggeration (doom! Shadowy private hands!) then wrap things up with a “need more info.” Oh brother.