6 ms·

If you genuinely want to understand criticism of Israel, the Wikipedia article for Israel is a good starting place. I am not being flip or sarcastic – you are r

If you genuinely want to understand criticism of Israel, the Wikipedia article for Israel is a good starting place. I am not being flip or sarcastic – you are repeating a lot of nationalist propaganda and may benefit from a different perspective.

JanSt 5y ago
Can you give some more specifics?
- mysecretaccount 5y ago
  I recommend checking out the disparity in terms of casualties and general suffering this year alone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_...) and working backward. This talk (https://youtu.be/MON2HL02mec https://youtu.be/MON2HL02mec) of Norman Finkelstein is also a solid introduction.
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    Israel has the better military. That doesn't automatically make them evil. Their enemies (Hamas) have sworn to eliminate them. What would you do if you were Israel?
  - JanSt 5y ago
    Please be more specific. A disparity in casualties is to be expected in this kind of conflict. It also says nothing about who started what, who wants to erase whom etc. Regarding Finkelstein (who has been endorsed by David Duke and others): Bronzik, Benz, Seligmann and many more have shown many flaws in his book. It's easy to throw some articles around and put appeals to authority ("Finkelstein is also a solid introduction") in a comment. No conflict it as clear as people on any side make it sound.
    - mysecretaccount 5y ago
      Ah, another tedious, bad faith request for more detailed information, complete with ad hominem "Finkelstein was endorsed by a white supremacist"! How many of these HN accounts are you posting from this evening?
      - colinb 5y ago
        This is not a good-faith argument. If you cannot address disagreement without asserting that your interlocutors are glove-puppet, how are we to progress? If you're going to argue from authority, then you have to be prepared to have the authority questioned. This isn't the USSR. We're allowed to say that your holy texts are nonsense.
        mysecretaccount 5y ago
        It absolutely is good-faith, as I genuinely believe there are puppet accounts used on this page. Another user mentioned it. What is not good-faith are persistent "requests for more information" from apartheid apologists (the number of actual people these users represent is in question) that have no interest in the "specifics" or "elaboration" they are asking for.
      - JanSt 5y ago
        If you cannot give specific points your argument may not be very good. I‘m sorry to question your deities. You brought them to the table. mysecretaccount, this is my only account. Also, it‘s midday in Europe.
voz_ 5y ago
I lived there for a bit. During that time, I volunteered at a refugee camp for Palestinians. My sentiment was shared by a good number of them. The unified thread there is a hate for Hamas. I know you didn't know that, but with that in mind, I do not think the wikipedia article will change my mind much.
- mysecretaccount 5y ago
  > I do not think the wikipedia article will change my mind much. We agree on this point, but perhaps it will encourage good-faith research for someone reading this thread that has not bought into apartheid propaganda.
  - voz_ 5y ago
    Thanks for accusing me of that. In what way is at an apartheid? There is no systematic discrimination based on race in Israel. I cannot say the same for other countries, esp when it comes to Jews.
    - mysecretaccount 5y ago
      Hey, neither of us is going to change the other's view here, so it is not useful to go back and forth like this. If you wanted an answer to that question you could look it up, like I have looked up the arguments and counter arguments to the apartheid question. What is interesting is that the tide is turning and your view is becoming less common, especially among the youth in developed nations, particularly Ireland. This is good news, for the well-being of Israelis and Palestinians alike.
      - voz_ 5y ago
        I am sad you are not open to being swayed, what is the value of coming to a discussion with no intent to change your own mind? How can you visit to offer opinions, with the intent to change others minds, but not be open to having your own changed? Perhaps this topic is near and dear to you, so it is difficult. I do recommend re-evaluating how you think about common discussion spaces like these, and the nature of disagreements in general. Perhaps, as a start, let's find some common ground: I firmly believe that both Israelis and Palestinians deserve peace, prosperity, and full rights.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

JanSt 5y ago

Can you give some more specifics?

mysecretaccount 5y ago
I recommend checking out the disparity in terms of casualties and general suffering this year alone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_...) and working backward. This talk (https://youtu.be/MON2HL02mec https://youtu.be/MON2HL02mec) of Norman Finkelstein is also a solid introduction.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  Israel has the better military. That doesn't automatically make them evil. Their enemies (Hamas) have sworn to eliminate them. What would you do if you were Israel?
- JanSt 5y ago
  Please be more specific. A disparity in casualties is to be expected in this kind of conflict. It also says nothing about who started what, who wants to erase whom etc. Regarding Finkelstein (who has been endorsed by David Duke and others): Bronzik, Benz, Seligmann and many more have shown many flaws in his book. It's easy to throw some articles around and put appeals to authority ("Finkelstein is also a solid introduction") in a comment. No conflict it as clear as people on any side make it sound.
  - mysecretaccount 5y ago
    Ah, another tedious, bad faith request for more detailed information, complete with ad hominem "Finkelstein was endorsed by a white supremacist"! How many of these HN accounts are you posting from this evening?
    - colinb 5y ago
      This is not a good-faith argument. If you cannot address disagreement without asserting that your interlocutors are glove-puppet, how are we to progress? If you're going to argue from authority, then you have to be prepared to have the authority questioned. This isn't the USSR. We're allowed to say that your holy texts are nonsense.
      - mysecretaccount 5y ago
        It absolutely is good-faith, as I genuinely believe there are puppet accounts used on this page. Another user mentioned it. What is not good-faith are persistent "requests for more information" from apartheid apologists (the number of actual people these users represent is in question) that have no interest in the "specifics" or "elaboration" they are asking for.
    - JanSt 5y ago
      If you cannot give specific points your argument may not be very good. I‘m sorry to question your deities. You brought them to the table. mysecretaccount, this is my only account. Also, it‘s midday in Europe.

voz_ 5y ago

I lived there for a bit. During that time, I volunteered at a refugee camp for Palestinians. My sentiment was shared by a good number of them. The unified thread there is a hate for Hamas. I know you didn't know that, but with that in mind, I do not think the wikipedia article will change my mind much.

mysecretaccount 5y ago
> I do not think the wikipedia article will change my mind much. We agree on this point, but perhaps it will encourage good-faith research for someone reading this thread that has not bought into apartheid propaganda.
- voz_ 5y ago
  Thanks for accusing me of that. In what way is at an apartheid? There is no systematic discrimination based on race in Israel. I cannot say the same for other countries, esp when it comes to Jews.
  - mysecretaccount 5y ago
    Hey, neither of us is going to change the other's view here, so it is not useful to go back and forth like this. If you wanted an answer to that question you could look it up, like I have looked up the arguments and counter arguments to the apartheid question. What is interesting is that the tide is turning and your view is becoming less common, especially among the youth in developed nations, particularly Ireland. This is good news, for the well-being of Israelis and Palestinians alike.
    - voz_ 5y ago
      I am sad you are not open to being swayed, what is the value of coming to a discussion with no intent to change your own mind? How can you visit to offer opinions, with the intent to change others minds, but not be open to having your own changed? Perhaps this topic is near and dear to you, so it is difficult. I do recommend re-evaluating how you think about common discussion spaces like these, and the nature of disagreements in general. Perhaps, as a start, let's find some common ground: I firmly believe that both Israelis and Palestinians deserve peace, prosperity, and full rights.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]