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That's really easy to answer. At the time of Guy Fawkes, the Protestant world was in a battle for survival. Catholics were in the process of burning over 100,0

That's really easy to answer. At the time of Guy Fawkes, the Protestant world was in a battle for survival. Catholics were in the process of burning over 100,000 people on the cross, and they would imminently launch the 30 year war which is regarded as one of the most destructive in human civilization. In the next 150 years, the UK would face multiple attempts from Catholics to take over the country. Guy Fawkes was a useful and pertinent symbol to remind people of the ongoing battle. By the year 1984 this had all been finished for more than a hundred years at least. Through the hegemony of England and then the US, Protestantism and the ideals of freedom of religion, freedom of thought, and national independence had won out over the world. The IRA was just a terrorist group of no real importance in the larger scheme of things.

qwytw 5y ago
Equating Protestantism with the freedom of religion or freedom of thought is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Considering that protestants were generally just as keen on burning catholics, other protestants or generally people they didn’t like (much more so than the catholics in the case of witches) as the catholics. Of course the degree of extremism varied amongst different denominations (however the more liberal and pacifist groups were never in power in anywhere and were often oppressed and persecuted). For instance the closest modern equivalent of calvinism (as practiced by John Calvin himself in Geneva) would surely be Wahhabism (or the Taliban)? Religious freedom was a fringe idea in the UK until the late 18th/early 19th centuries.
- mrjangles 5y ago
  Yes definitely not all Protestant sects believed in these values, they are all very different after all, but it was a common trend because they had all suffered persecution. Protestants fled to America and the spirit of freedom of religion was started there, particularly in Pennsylvanian under the Quakers (where all religions including Muslims, Jews and Hindus were welcome... but not Catholics). The witch burning were started, and continued to be carried out mostly by the Catholics, but there are exceptions such as the large number that took place in Scotland. Also during the chaos and slaughter wrought by the invading Catholics, there were many cases of revenge attacks as everyone struggled for survival, but I don't know where you get the idea that it was mostly carried out by protestants. As to your other point, pacifism and pacifist groups were a rarity but that has nothing to do with freedom of ideas. The whole basis of Protestantism is that human authority has no sway over man and each individual has to find god their own way through reading and through thought. It is very clear from history that these ideas were started by the Protestants and were spread everywhere that protestants went. Just look at where in the world all the scientific breakthroughs took place over time.
  - qwytw 5y ago
    Quakers and other similar groups were a minority and generally only had very limited influence at the time. Even in the case of North America, Puritanism had a much bigger following and well.. Puritans were not known for their openness to new ideas and in fact were as cruel to the Quakers as the Spanish Catholics were to the Jews and Muslims ("Boston martyrs"). Generally both catholics and protestants burned witches at comparable rates. Most were burned in areas where protestantism and catholicism were directly competing with each other (Germany and the surrounding areas). Luther and Calvin were both were keen on witch burning while for instance the dreaded spanish inquisition did not even officially recognize the existence of witchcraft (the number of people executed in spain is generally low compared to most major protestant countries and almost all there were convicted by secular courts rather than the inquisition). When given free reign, Calvin in this attempt to turn Geneva into a ideal puritan state he created dystopian theocracy, not any less oppressive than almost all Catholic states at the time. Generally the ideas you're describing were formed by humanists like Petrarch, Erasmus, Bruni etc. (who were all catholic) prior to the spread of protestantism, while they were embraced by some protestant groups, they were mainly further developed by (mostly) secular enlightenment philosophers (most of whom again were from Catholic countries). Most breakthroughs happened in places were people first embraced secularism and stopped taking organized religion too seriously (I agree that this was more likely to happen in Protestant countries but mainly because less organized and smaller protestant churches tended to be weaker and easier to ignore than the catholic church).
    - mrjangles 5y ago
      you raise some good points. For example the Puritans caused as much suffering for the English under Cromwell as the Church of England did to the Puritans in return...but I feel something is missing from your discussion. I am not claiming there is something in the bible that made protestants more peaceful. I'm not saying they weren't as prone to religious fervor as others. I'm saying it was something in their attitude of intellectualism, and their refusal to defer to authority that allowed humanity to move forward. Almost all Scientific and engineering breakthroughs in that period happened in Scotland, Netherlands, England, and Germany. This isn't a coincidence. Only after the French revolution and the rise of secularism did the former Catholic world begin to take part in the scientific revolution. Also, because of the persecution in England and elsewhere, many fled to America and while one can always find examples to the contrary, the fact remains that the separation of church and state in America was pretty much welcomed by all, and it was specifically because of what the people who lived there had learned about religious persecution and how those in power use such persecution for their own ends. In fact, such a situation, with an entire country of deeply religious people all agreeing to restrict the power of religion, is so extraordinary that you can't simply dismiss it. Clearly extraordinary circumstances existed at the time for this to occur, and this needs to be explained.

qwytw 5y ago

Equating Protestantism with the freedom of religion or freedom of thought is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Considering that protestants were generally just as keen on burning catholics, other protestants or generally people they didn’t like (much more so than the catholics in the case of witches) as the catholics. Of course the degree of extremism varied amongst different denominations (however the more liberal and pacifist groups were never in power in anywhere and were often oppressed and persecuted). For instance the closest modern equivalent of calvinism (as practiced by John Calvin himself in Geneva) would surely be Wahhabism (or the Taliban)? Religious freedom was a fringe idea in the UK until the late 18th/early 19th centuries.

mrjangles 5y ago
Yes definitely not all Protestant sects believed in these values, they are all very different after all, but it was a common trend because they had all suffered persecution. Protestants fled to America and the spirit of freedom of religion was started there, particularly in Pennsylvanian under the Quakers (where all religions including Muslims, Jews and Hindus were welcome... but not Catholics). The witch burning were started, and continued to be carried out mostly by the Catholics, but there are exceptions such as the large number that took place in Scotland. Also during the chaos and slaughter wrought by the invading Catholics, there were many cases of revenge attacks as everyone struggled for survival, but I don't know where you get the idea that it was mostly carried out by protestants. As to your other point, pacifism and pacifist groups were a rarity but that has nothing to do with freedom of ideas. The whole basis of Protestantism is that human authority has no sway over man and each individual has to find god their own way through reading and through thought. It is very clear from history that these ideas were started by the Protestants and were spread everywhere that protestants went. Just look at where in the world all the scientific breakthroughs took place over time.
- qwytw 5y ago
  Quakers and other similar groups were a minority and generally only had very limited influence at the time. Even in the case of North America, Puritanism had a much bigger following and well.. Puritans were not known for their openness to new ideas and in fact were as cruel to the Quakers as the Spanish Catholics were to the Jews and Muslims ("Boston martyrs"). Generally both catholics and protestants burned witches at comparable rates. Most were burned in areas where protestantism and catholicism were directly competing with each other (Germany and the surrounding areas). Luther and Calvin were both were keen on witch burning while for instance the dreaded spanish inquisition did not even officially recognize the existence of witchcraft (the number of people executed in spain is generally low compared to most major protestant countries and almost all there were convicted by secular courts rather than the inquisition). When given free reign, Calvin in this attempt to turn Geneva into a ideal puritan state he created dystopian theocracy, not any less oppressive than almost all Catholic states at the time. Generally the ideas you're describing were formed by humanists like Petrarch, Erasmus, Bruni etc. (who were all catholic) prior to the spread of protestantism, while they were embraced by some protestant groups, they were mainly further developed by (mostly) secular enlightenment philosophers (most of whom again were from Catholic countries). Most breakthroughs happened in places were people first embraced secularism and stopped taking organized religion too seriously (I agree that this was more likely to happen in Protestant countries but mainly because less organized and smaller protestant churches tended to be weaker and easier to ignore than the catholic church).
  - mrjangles 5y ago
    you raise some good points. For example the Puritans caused as much suffering for the English under Cromwell as the Church of England did to the Puritans in return...but I feel something is missing from your discussion. I am not claiming there is something in the bible that made protestants more peaceful. I'm not saying they weren't as prone to religious fervor as others. I'm saying it was something in their attitude of intellectualism, and their refusal to defer to authority that allowed humanity to move forward. Almost all Scientific and engineering breakthroughs in that period happened in Scotland, Netherlands, England, and Germany. This isn't a coincidence. Only after the French revolution and the rise of secularism did the former Catholic world begin to take part in the scientific revolution. Also, because of the persecution in England and elsewhere, many fled to America and while one can always find examples to the contrary, the fact remains that the separation of church and state in America was pretty much welcomed by all, and it was specifically because of what the people who lived there had learned about religious persecution and how those in power use such persecution for their own ends. In fact, such a situation, with an entire country of deeply religious people all agreeing to restrict the power of religion, is so extraordinary that you can't simply dismiss it. Clearly extraordinary circumstances existed at the time for this to occur, and this needs to be explained.