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The biggest problem with NJB is that he completely ignores important fact: there are many people that don't want to live in apartments or even close to other pe

The biggest problem with NJB is that he completely ignores important fact: there are many people that don't want to live in apartments or even close to other people. Surprise surprise, we really want to live on 10 acres of land in our 3500 sqft house, with our motorcycles, garage workshops, dogs et cetera. We don't need "sense of community", we just want to have quiet space for ourselves.

harpersealtako 5y ago
I think you're touching on really common mistake a lot of new urbanists make, and the linked article generally is about. The problem is there's a lot of demand for dense neighborhoods but not enough supply -- not that suburbs and rural developments are objectively bad or that nobody actually prefers them. In many cases certain interests, hobbies, preferences and lifestyles are completely incompatible with the dense developments preferred by certain opinionated urban planners. New Urbanists should focus on "why dense neighborhoods are good" over "why suburbs/car-oriented neighborhoods are bad", because they probably need the support of all of us suburb-loving car-driving folks in the first place, and a lot of us interpret criticism of car-driving and suburban living as a heavy-handed attack on our way of life rather than as a reasonable argument for having affordable options for both lifestyles.
- schwartzworld 5y ago
  There are people who actually like the suburbs? It's the worst of all worlds.
  - stackedinserter 5y ago
    Well, I do like to live in my suburban house. At least I like it more than living in apartments in "dense neighbourhood", where I grew up. I have parks, playgrounds, a grocery store, school for my kids, convenience stores, fast food places, a pet store, a booze store, even two cannabis dispensaries in 600m radius. I have a huge tech park with tons of jobs in 10 minutes of cycling. I'm happy here. Why would I need to move anywhere? For what?
    - schwartzworld 5y ago
      Interesting. I grew up in suburbia and hated it.
    - ikrenji 5y ago
      sounds like the dream tbh. cities are overrated
  - harpersealtako 5y ago
    The plurality of Americans do, even (and especially) those with the means to afford dense, walkable urban life. I don't see why this should be a surprise to anybody to be honest.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      I dunno, the really rich tend to be attracted to cities more then the merely moderately rich. I think its possible that you are just working with a too low assessment of what really affording dense urban life looks like. Once you get into the realm where you can afford as much space as a generous suburban home but in a dense urban environment,...
      - harpersealtako 5y ago
        The really rich have city homes sure. But they also have beachside cabins and vacation homes in rural and suburban areas, so they can enjoy both worlds. If you're still in the realm of merely moderately rich mortals who can't own both a penthouse apartment and a generously large villa in the suburbs, you'll have to choose one or the other -- and in most cases in America, they'll choose the suburban home.
- Karrot_Kream 5y ago
  > a lot of us interpret criticism of car-driving and suburban living as a heavy-handed attack on our way of life rather than as a reasonable argument for having affordable options for both lifestyles It's just folks punching up. The vast majority of the US is zoned for the car. It's really difficult to find a place that allows a car-free or even a low-car lifestyle. People would react a lot differently if there actually were multiple cities that allowed these lifestyles.
  - harpersealtako 5y ago
    I don't disagree, I just think that being anti-suburb is a less efficient strategy for fixing the problem than being pro-density.
AlotOfReading 5y ago
That's fine, 99% of the US has been built to accommodate exactly this style of living. Where's the space for the people who want density and public transit though? The comment you're responding to is lamenting the fact that even SF, one of densest urban areas in the US, is mostly vast tracts of suburban housing overlaid with a slow, barely acceptable transit system. Surely we can do better than that.
little_endorian 5y ago
He literally has a video praising a suburb with detached houses, while attacking a suburb with 40-storey condo buildings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0 Sure, we'd all love to live in spacious mansions with robot butlers. But in the real world, most people live in crappy suburbs, where much of the land is dedicated to useless front lawns and excessive parking requirements that make walking a major PITA.
foxyv 5y ago
When I was a kid, my dad would refer to the Urban Sprawl as "The Cancer." All of a sudden, beautiful orange groves and rural communities would be turned into noisy car infested bedroom communities for a city that was 30-40 miles away. If you want to have 10 acre rural homesteads, you also have to have good urban planning. Otherwise all the good farm land will turn into cookie cutter "Planned" communities where you can't fart without a permit.

harpersealtako 5y ago

I think you're touching on really common mistake a lot of new urbanists make, and the linked article generally is about. The problem is there's a lot of demand for dense neighborhoods but not enough supply -- not that suburbs and rural developments are objectively bad or that nobody actually prefers them. In many cases certain interests, hobbies, preferences and lifestyles are completely incompatible with the dense developments preferred by certain opinionated urban planners. New Urbanists should focus on "why dense neighborhoods are good" over "why suburbs/car-oriented neighborhoods are bad", because they probably need the support of all of us suburb-loving car-driving folks in the first place, and a lot of us interpret criticism of car-driving and suburban living as a heavy-handed attack on our way of life rather than as a reasonable argument for having affordable options for both lifestyles.

schwartzworld 5y ago
There are people who actually like the suburbs? It's the worst of all worlds.
- stackedinserter 5y ago
  Well, I do like to live in my suburban house. At least I like it more than living in apartments in "dense neighbourhood", where I grew up. I have parks, playgrounds, a grocery store, school for my kids, convenience stores, fast food places, a pet store, a booze store, even two cannabis dispensaries in 600m radius. I have a huge tech park with tons of jobs in 10 minutes of cycling. I'm happy here. Why would I need to move anywhere? For what?
  - schwartzworld 5y ago
    Interesting. I grew up in suburbia and hated it.
  - ikrenji 5y ago
    sounds like the dream tbh. cities are overrated
- harpersealtako 5y ago
  The plurality of Americans do, even (and especially) those with the means to afford dense, walkable urban life. I don't see why this should be a surprise to anybody to be honest.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    I dunno, the really rich tend to be attracted to cities more then the merely moderately rich. I think its possible that you are just working with a too low assessment of what really affording dense urban life looks like. Once you get into the realm where you can afford as much space as a generous suburban home but in a dense urban environment,...
    - harpersealtako 5y ago
      The really rich have city homes sure. But they also have beachside cabins and vacation homes in rural and suburban areas, so they can enjoy both worlds. If you're still in the realm of merely moderately rich mortals who can't own both a penthouse apartment and a generously large villa in the suburbs, you'll have to choose one or the other -- and in most cases in America, they'll choose the suburban home.
Karrot_Kream 5y ago
> a lot of us interpret criticism of car-driving and suburban living as a heavy-handed attack on our way of life rather than as a reasonable argument for having affordable options for both lifestyles It's just folks punching up. The vast majority of the US is zoned for the car. It's really difficult to find a place that allows a car-free or even a low-car lifestyle. People would react a lot differently if there actually were multiple cities that allowed these lifestyles.
- harpersealtako 5y ago
  I don't disagree, I just think that being anti-suburb is a less efficient strategy for fixing the problem than being pro-density.

AlotOfReading 5y ago

That's fine, 99% of the US has been built to accommodate exactly this style of living. Where's the space for the people who want density and public transit though? The comment you're responding to is lamenting the fact that even SF, one of densest urban areas in the US, is mostly vast tracts of suburban housing overlaid with a slow, barely acceptable transit system. Surely we can do better than that.

little_endorian 5y ago

He literally has a video praising a suburb with detached houses, while attacking a suburb with 40-storey condo buildings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0 Sure, we'd all love to live in spacious mansions with robot butlers. But in the real world, most people live in crappy suburbs, where much of the land is dedicated to useless front lawns and excessive parking requirements that make walking a major PITA.

foxyv 5y ago

When I was a kid, my dad would refer to the Urban Sprawl as "The Cancer." All of a sudden, beautiful orange groves and rural communities would be turned into noisy car infested bedroom communities for a city that was 30-40 miles away. If you want to have 10 acre rural homesteads, you also have to have good urban planning. Otherwise all the good farm land will turn into cookie cutter "Planned" communities where you can't fart without a permit.