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Or shrink to mobile size or use your browser's Reader View. Horizontal scrolling multi-column was a weird aesthetic choice based on personal preference (despit

Or shrink to mobile size or use your browser's Reader View. Horizontal scrolling multi-column was a weird aesthetic choice based on personal preference (despite bad and growing worse browser support, sigh), but it's a personal blog and as "a 90s web kid" I strongly believe weird aesthetic choices are what makes blogs personal and not just another walled garden like most of social media (or Medium).

ebruchez 5y ago
I intend the following as friendly feedback. Personal is fine but that doesn't have to imply impossible to use. The main problem is that it's not discoverable, at least on MacOS where there are no scrollbars. I found the horizontal scrolling by chance after trying every key on the keyboard. In the meanwhile I had already scanned the article using the Reader mode in Safari.
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  Personally, I think that a UX bug on Apple's side that they lost scrollbars and any hint of "more to see". As an iOS and iPadOS user I get so frustrated every time I discover a thing scrolls that wasn't obvious. I have observed that almost every iOS/iPadOS user (mostly subconsciously) "twitches" constantly over apps trying to find things that scroll. I wish Apple would provide at least something of a better user experience here. This is also one of the things where I'm disappointed that browser support for multi-column has only grown worse over time rather than better: I tried to intentionally set it so that there would be at least some next column "bleed through" horizontally in CSS and that (mostly) worked when I built the CSS theme but WebKit, Blink, and Firefox all moved to implementations that always balance columns evenly in viewport space rather than what the CSS specifically asks for. (And Edge Classic died, the one browser that really cared about good multi-column experiences.)
  - toomanydoubts 5y ago
    I get this issue on Android Chrome when using the "Desktop Site" version. Personally, I believe the UX problem is with the website. You seem to be aware of the problem and yet decided to keep a broken version. That's a UX decision made by you. The web is top-to-bottom, every user has this expectation. The usual mouse has a top-to-bottom scroll wheel, not a left-to-right one. Maybe it's not what you want, but it is what it is. You can either accept that fact and use a top-bottom layout, or accept the fact that you made a deliberate decision to create a confusing UX.
    - WorldMaker 5y ago
      I stated several comments up directly in this chain that a confusing UX on my personal blog was a deliberate decision. I stand by that. I also point out that I tried to add affordances to make it easier to use and was stymied by bad browser support getting worse. I haven't updated this CSS in a while, because I haven't felt like I needed to, but the way the browsers display it in 2021 is actively worse than when I wrote it and I'm sorry about that. I can also at the same time believe that Apple removing scrollbars altogether and not replacing them with some sort of affordance is also a UX crime, whether or not my own decisions that make are worsened because of it were deliberate.
      - toomanydoubts 5y ago
        Well, it's good to see that you accept its your own decision, given the circumstances, that made it what it is. If you're set on that, maybe you could try adding a really unmistakable indicator such as a "Scroll right for more ->" text. I'm not sure if that's good as I'm not a UX/UI designer, but probably better than nothing. Still, as a user, a would prefer something that I'm used to, such as top-down text.
        WorldMaker 5y ago
        When I wrote this CSS the columns themselves were supposed to do that and supposed to "peek" across the edges. Browsers decided to take a different, worse layout approach to multi-column and broke my intended CSS affordances. There wasn't intended to be "nothing". Just time and tech debt.
  - cheeze 5y ago
    > I wish Apple would provide at least something of a better user experience here But they don't, so its generally our job to work around that and provide sane usability in light of decisions made by larger browsers. Still doesn't make horizontal scrolling discoverable or a pleasant UX.
    - WorldMaker 5y ago
      I had affordances. Browsers dropped support for them. I'm taking all this feedback in for whenever I have time to next update my personal blog CSS.
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    Multi-column plays poorly with mobile user agent UX, because the swipe motion made (often with just a thumb) is inaccurate. Works alright if you can reduce it to just the y-axis, but you ask a lot of your end-user on a mobile UA to scroll horizontally also. Flipbook or vertical scroll are the two metaphors that work here. That having been said, you should be able to tune your stylesheets to vend one that gets users single-column text on mobile devices with some elbow grease. Up to you whether it's worth it.
    - WorldMaker 5y ago
      That's absolutely what this CSS already does and why a suggestion above is to shrink the browser tab width to a "mobile" media breakpoint for vertical scrolling if that is preferred even on wider screens.
      - shadowgovt 5y ago
        My mistake... I had my phone set to "Request desktop sites by default" and forgot! No complaints from here about the mobile UX.
LarrySellers 5y ago
Unfortunately it makes them inaccessible in this case, I wouldn't even know how to scroll sideways unless you actually expect a user to click and drag a scrollbar. Even if the site was usable the the text is still illegible.
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  Yeah, I wish I had scroll wheel support again. The CSS for that was never standardized and the browsers that supported it no longer exist and most of the JS-based solutions are a bit more lacking than I would prefer. I've been tracking it for a while: https://github.com/WorldMaker/lcars-moderne/issues/1 https://github.com/WorldMaker/lcars-moderne/issues/1
dentemple 5y ago
The first section just needs a little note that the user needs to scroll horizontally to continue. Certain browsers make it completely non-obvious that you have to do so to see more content, and it's no longer "intuitive" UX for most users.
Alex3917 5y ago
I'd agree with you if hitting the spacebar or the arrow keys made it scroll over a full page. But honestly this is pretty ridiculous.
kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
The 90's web was broken with bad assumptions about the viewport for what was supposed to be a flexible layout engine. This is no different that hardcoding for 640x480 and making everyone else suffer.
halfeatenpie 5y ago
I see your point and that's up to you. But I do think factoring in the end user's experience is important here if you want them to listen to your argument. You're trying to sell someone that your idea is right, but having the desktop experience be a bit difficult (and putting it on the end user to deal with it) doesn't really help you in communicating your points. It also makes it harder for them to digest your content, therefore people might just skip over it. But again, it's a personal blog so all these decisions are up to you and your liking!
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  I appreciate that and tried to compensate for some of the trade-offs with the CSS available at the time. CSS that the browsers seem intent on not supporting and maybe dropping. I do find upsetting that I end up having to apologize a lot for trying to do some things that I thought were fun/unique/unusual/personal touches and the browsers just getting worse about it with passing years rather than better. It is interesting how many of these comments have fallen into style of substance fallacy over the contents of the arguments themselves, and I am listening to all of this feedback. This current CSS was designed to make 90s kid me happy, primarily on "Edge Classic". It's not aged as well as I would have liked, and I don't know if/when I'll revisit it, but I am listening.
  - tarboreus 5y ago
    You know what? Keep it. It's weird but I think that makes it cool. Don't get demoralized. Everyone is boring today. If this was a business or something I'd say ditch it and make your website have Bootstrap or whatever least common denominator thing. It's not, it's your place to express yourself, so don't let wet blankets ruin your site for you. Here's two other weird sites just to keep up your morale. https://slimedaughter.com/ https://slimedaughter.com/ http://art.teleportacia.org/olia.html http://art.teleportacia.org/olia.html
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
SahAssar 5y ago
> I strongly believe weird aesthetic choices are what makes blogs personal and not just another walled garden like most of social media (or Medium). Sure, but in this case the choice also strongly sacrifices usability. Even on non-MacOS desktop firefox I didn't know there was more to the article before reading the parent comment. If you want people to read more of the article then perhaps make it easier to find out that there is more of it.

ebruchez 5y ago

I intend the following as friendly feedback. Personal is fine but that doesn't have to imply impossible to use. The main problem is that it's not discoverable, at least on MacOS where there are no scrollbars. I found the horizontal scrolling by chance after trying every key on the keyboard. In the meanwhile I had already scanned the article using the Reader mode in Safari.

WorldMaker 5y ago
Personally, I think that a UX bug on Apple's side that they lost scrollbars and any hint of "more to see". As an iOS and iPadOS user I get so frustrated every time I discover a thing scrolls that wasn't obvious. I have observed that almost every iOS/iPadOS user (mostly subconsciously) "twitches" constantly over apps trying to find things that scroll. I wish Apple would provide at least something of a better user experience here. This is also one of the things where I'm disappointed that browser support for multi-column has only grown worse over time rather than better: I tried to intentionally set it so that there would be at least some next column "bleed through" horizontally in CSS and that (mostly) worked when I built the CSS theme but WebKit, Blink, and Firefox all moved to implementations that always balance columns evenly in viewport space rather than what the CSS specifically asks for. (And Edge Classic died, the one browser that really cared about good multi-column experiences.)
- toomanydoubts 5y ago
  I get this issue on Android Chrome when using the "Desktop Site" version. Personally, I believe the UX problem is with the website. You seem to be aware of the problem and yet decided to keep a broken version. That's a UX decision made by you. The web is top-to-bottom, every user has this expectation. The usual mouse has a top-to-bottom scroll wheel, not a left-to-right one. Maybe it's not what you want, but it is what it is. You can either accept that fact and use a top-bottom layout, or accept the fact that you made a deliberate decision to create a confusing UX.
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
    I stated several comments up directly in this chain that a confusing UX on my personal blog was a deliberate decision. I stand by that. I also point out that I tried to add affordances to make it easier to use and was stymied by bad browser support getting worse. I haven't updated this CSS in a while, because I haven't felt like I needed to, but the way the browsers display it in 2021 is actively worse than when I wrote it and I'm sorry about that. I can also at the same time believe that Apple removing scrollbars altogether and not replacing them with some sort of affordance is also a UX crime, whether or not my own decisions that make are worsened because of it were deliberate.
    - toomanydoubts 5y ago
      Well, it's good to see that you accept its your own decision, given the circumstances, that made it what it is. If you're set on that, maybe you could try adding a really unmistakable indicator such as a "Scroll right for more ->" text. I'm not sure if that's good as I'm not a UX/UI designer, but probably better than nothing. Still, as a user, a would prefer something that I'm used to, such as top-down text.
      - WorldMaker 5y ago
        When I wrote this CSS the columns themselves were supposed to do that and supposed to "peek" across the edges. Browsers decided to take a different, worse layout approach to multi-column and broke my intended CSS affordances. There wasn't intended to be "nothing". Just time and tech debt.
- cheeze 5y ago
  > I wish Apple would provide at least something of a better user experience here But they don't, so its generally our job to work around that and provide sane usability in light of decisions made by larger browsers. Still doesn't make horizontal scrolling discoverable or a pleasant UX.
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
    I had affordances. Browsers dropped support for them. I'm taking all this feedback in for whenever I have time to next update my personal blog CSS.
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  Multi-column plays poorly with mobile user agent UX, because the swipe motion made (often with just a thumb) is inaccurate. Works alright if you can reduce it to just the y-axis, but you ask a lot of your end-user on a mobile UA to scroll horizontally also. Flipbook or vertical scroll are the two metaphors that work here. That having been said, you should be able to tune your stylesheets to vend one that gets users single-column text on mobile devices with some elbow grease. Up to you whether it's worth it.
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
    That's absolutely what this CSS already does and why a suggestion above is to shrink the browser tab width to a "mobile" media breakpoint for vertical scrolling if that is preferred even on wider screens.
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      My mistake... I had my phone set to "Request desktop sites by default" and forgot! No complaints from here about the mobile UX.

LarrySellers 5y ago

Unfortunately it makes them inaccessible in this case, I wouldn't even know how to scroll sideways unless you actually expect a user to click and drag a scrollbar. Even if the site was usable the the text is still illegible.

WorldMaker 5y ago
Yeah, I wish I had scroll wheel support again. The CSS for that was never standardized and the browsers that supported it no longer exist and most of the JS-based solutions are a bit more lacking than I would prefer. I've been tracking it for a while: https://github.com/WorldMaker/lcars-moderne/issues/1 https://github.com/WorldMaker/lcars-moderne/issues/1

dentemple 5y ago

The first section just needs a little note that the user needs to scroll horizontally to continue. Certain browsers make it completely non-obvious that you have to do so to see more content, and it's no longer "intuitive" UX for most users.

Alex3917 5y ago

I'd agree with you if hitting the spacebar or the arrow keys made it scroll over a full page. But honestly this is pretty ridiculous.

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago

The 90's web was broken with bad assumptions about the viewport for what was supposed to be a flexible layout engine. This is no different that hardcoding for 640x480 and making everyone else suffer.

halfeatenpie 5y ago

I see your point and that's up to you. But I do think factoring in the end user's experience is important here if you want them to listen to your argument. You're trying to sell someone that your idea is right, but having the desktop experience be a bit difficult (and putting it on the end user to deal with it) doesn't really help you in communicating your points. It also makes it harder for them to digest your content, therefore people might just skip over it. But again, it's a personal blog so all these decisions are up to you and your liking!

WorldMaker 5y ago
I appreciate that and tried to compensate for some of the trade-offs with the CSS available at the time. CSS that the browsers seem intent on not supporting and maybe dropping. I do find upsetting that I end up having to apologize a lot for trying to do some things that I thought were fun/unique/unusual/personal touches and the browsers just getting worse about it with passing years rather than better. It is interesting how many of these comments have fallen into style of substance fallacy over the contents of the arguments themselves, and I am listening to all of this feedback. This current CSS was designed to make 90s kid me happy, primarily on "Edge Classic". It's not aged as well as I would have liked, and I don't know if/when I'll revisit it, but I am listening.
- tarboreus 5y ago
  You know what? Keep it. It's weird but I think that makes it cool. Don't get demoralized. Everyone is boring today. If this was a business or something I'd say ditch it and make your website have Bootstrap or whatever least common denominator thing. It's not, it's your place to express yourself, so don't let wet blankets ruin your site for you. Here's two other weird sites just to keep up your morale. https://slimedaughter.com/ https://slimedaughter.com/ http://art.teleportacia.org/olia.html http://art.teleportacia.org/olia.html
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

SahAssar 5y ago

> I strongly believe weird aesthetic choices are what makes blogs personal and not just another walled garden like most of social media (or Medium). Sure, but in this case the choice also strongly sacrifices usability. Even on non-MacOS desktop firefox I didn't know there was more to the article before reading the parent comment. If you want people to read more of the article then perhaps make it easier to find out that there is more of it.