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"One fascinating aspect of narcissists is their ability to make a very positive first impression. At first sight, narcissists have a reputation for being charmi

"One fascinating aspect of narcissists is their ability to make a very positive first impression. At first sight, narcissists have a reputation for being charming, likeable, extraverted, open to experience, and physically attractive" This reputation then changes the more people know them. I wonder how that's possible for attractiveness though? You'd think people's perceptions of that wouldn't change. Also if narcissists are generally regarded as attractive does that mean they are, and in this one dimension they aren't totally out of touch?

lazide 5y ago
Narcissists will sometimes spend an inordinate amount of time working on what they perceive to be physical signs of beauty in themselves, and ejecting or attacking those around them that are not willing to mirror back or validate their own feelings of beauty and superiority. Because narcissism is almost always driven by a deep feeling of trauma, inadequacy, and insecurity which was coped for by delusions of grandiosity - this comes out in various ways, and to various degrees of success based on how high functioning they are. A low functioning narcissist may be unable to get themselves in physical shape, or dress well, or groom themselves, or may have terrible plastic surgery, etc. and resort to attacking naysayers and spouting clear delusion that is easy to identify. A high functioning narcissist may be working out at the gym regularly, groom themselves well, and had any obvious flaws fixed with (high quality) plastic surgery - and be objectively physically attractive. They may be well practiced in debate and oratory skills, and have spent time improving social skills. These are relatively rare, as it takes SOME degree of awareness that these are not already perfect to get here, which a Narcissist will struggle with. There is a non-trivial overlap with what some high functioning psychopaths do here, but they are different in key and important ways. A different but related axis occurs around their ability to convince others of their delusions (and themselves). Low functioning, all but the most gullible or susceptible know it's bullshit, and avoids them. They can be self harming in clear ways as they aren't able to convince themselves well either sometimes. High functioning can be VERY VERY convincing, with almost everyone convinced and anyone who figures it out targeted quite successfully and removed from the social group (or sometimes from society in general, driven to suicide, or outright murdered depending on the degree of power and the amount of threat felt by that particular narcissist). They can convince themselves most (or all) of the time too, which makes it 'easier' as there is less cognitive dissonance. Those who disagree are clearly evil and out to get them, so no need to look at evidence or consider they might have a point. Where you draw the line on this for the clear pathology vs 'not really narcissism' is of course subjective and on a case by case basis.
- sdwr 5y ago
  This is one of those arguments that gets overbuilt on the anti- side. Narcissist is a boogeyman. There is no dark secret lurking at the heart of people's personality.
  - lazide 5y ago
    Eh, the world is complex and people need to simplify and put things in boxes (even if they don’t fit perfectly) in order to understand, classify, and communicate effectively. There ARE folks who are clearly narcissists, and having met one? God damn. It is very true that it is overused and ‘trendy’ right now to label folks that are a pain in the ass or that people don’t like that way, which is unfortunate. Doesn’t mean they don’t actually exist though. There ARE folks that fundamentally don’t work the way most people think people work, and that have (and which will continue to) cause sometimes catastrophic damage to themselves or others. Many of those folks can be fit into specific named boxes. Some cannot. If you consider that a dark secret or not is up to you.
evv555 5y ago
>I wonder how that's possible for attractiveness though? You'd think people's perceptions of that wouldn't change. Arguably "attractiveness" is a proxy for ephemeral attributes like status and other sorts of signaling narcissists excel at.

lazide 5y ago

Narcissists will sometimes spend an inordinate amount of time working on what they perceive to be physical signs of beauty in themselves, and ejecting or attacking those around them that are not willing to mirror back or validate their own feelings of beauty and superiority. Because narcissism is almost always driven by a deep feeling of trauma, inadequacy, and insecurity which was coped for by delusions of grandiosity - this comes out in various ways, and to various degrees of success based on how high functioning they are. A low functioning narcissist may be unable to get themselves in physical shape, or dress well, or groom themselves, or may have terrible plastic surgery, etc. and resort to attacking naysayers and spouting clear delusion that is easy to identify. A high functioning narcissist may be working out at the gym regularly, groom themselves well, and had any obvious flaws fixed with (high quality) plastic surgery - and be objectively physically attractive. They may be well practiced in debate and oratory skills, and have spent time improving social skills. These are relatively rare, as it takes SOME degree of awareness that these are not already perfect to get here, which a Narcissist will struggle with. There is a non-trivial overlap with what some high functioning psychopaths do here, but they are different in key and important ways. A different but related axis occurs around their ability to convince others of their delusions (and themselves). Low functioning, all but the most gullible or susceptible know it's bullshit, and avoids them. They can be self harming in clear ways as they aren't able to convince themselves well either sometimes. High functioning can be VERY VERY convincing, with almost everyone convinced and anyone who figures it out targeted quite successfully and removed from the social group (or sometimes from society in general, driven to suicide, or outright murdered depending on the degree of power and the amount of threat felt by that particular narcissist). They can convince themselves most (or all) of the time too, which makes it 'easier' as there is less cognitive dissonance. Those who disagree are clearly evil and out to get them, so no need to look at evidence or consider they might have a point. Where you draw the line on this for the clear pathology vs 'not really narcissism' is of course subjective and on a case by case basis.

sdwr 5y ago
This is one of those arguments that gets overbuilt on the anti- side. Narcissist is a boogeyman. There is no dark secret lurking at the heart of people's personality.
- lazide 5y ago
  Eh, the world is complex and people need to simplify and put things in boxes (even if they don’t fit perfectly) in order to understand, classify, and communicate effectively. There ARE folks who are clearly narcissists, and having met one? God damn. It is very true that it is overused and ‘trendy’ right now to label folks that are a pain in the ass or that people don’t like that way, which is unfortunate. Doesn’t mean they don’t actually exist though. There ARE folks that fundamentally don’t work the way most people think people work, and that have (and which will continue to) cause sometimes catastrophic damage to themselves or others. Many of those folks can be fit into specific named boxes. Some cannot. If you consider that a dark secret or not is up to you.

evv555 5y ago

>I wonder how that's possible for attractiveness though? You'd think people's perceptions of that wouldn't change. Arguably "attractiveness" is a proxy for ephemeral attributes like status and other sorts of signaling narcissists excel at.