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Places like Sweden, Japan, Taiwan are often touted as examples of why XYZ works. However people often fail to mention that these places are, relative to many co

Places like Sweden, Japan, Taiwan are often touted as examples of why XYZ works. However people often fail to mention that these places are, relative to many countries like the US, extremely homogenous in culture and ethnicity. Certain things that work in those countries will fall apart when attempted in a more diverse country.

nivenkos 5y ago
What does this have to do with ethnicity?
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  People trust those that look more like them. It’s just human nature. It’s why people say all all white jury is racist when defendants are black, or why cops are racist. Putnam’s diversity study also confirmed it. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-diversity-create-distrust/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-diversity-cr... the authors hand save the data with the usual ham fisted white people are racist retort. Sociologists aren't respected because of authors like them who have no basis in reality. It isn’t the only factor; China does it through culture, or Sinofication. https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization “Han Chinese” isn’t based on genetics it’s many different races that call themselves Han because they share culture. This is historically what happened in China and is now happening in Africa and South America.
  - silicon2401 5y ago
    > “Han Chinese” isn’t based on genetics it’s many different races that call themselves Han because they share culture. Not quite. Han Chinese is a specific ethnicity. But it is true that "Chinese” isn’t based on genetics, it’s many different races that call themselves "Chinese" because they share culture. Or to cover all cases, it's many different races that the Chinese government calls "Chinese" to push a facade of homogeneity, marginalize minority peoples like Uyghurs, and marginalize minority languages and cultures in China that aren't Han Chinese, though their current nationality is Chinese.
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      What do you mean about it being a specific ethnicity? From what Chinese people say and the history of it, "Han Chinese" is a recent concept and used like you said to push homogenuity. Its like calling people black, white or other nebulous terms. The Cantonese language is being removed in China but the people are still Han for instance.
      - silicon2401 5y ago
        I mean that Han Chinese is a specific ethnicity. It's a documented thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_East_Asians#Genetic_history_of_Han_Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_East_Asians... > the northern and southern Han Chinese are genetically closest to each other and it finds that the genetic characteristics of present-day northern Han Chinese were already formed as early as three thousand years ago in the Central Plain area.[22]
        GhettoComputers 5y ago
        If you look at the history of Han Chinese, they called themselves many different names. >Among some southern Han Chinese varieties such as Cantonese, Hakka and Minnan, a different term exists – Tang Chinese (Chinese: 唐人; pinyin: Táng Rén, literally "the people of Tang"), derived from the later Tang dynasty, regarded as another zenith of Chinese civilization. >The term "Huaxia" was used by Confucius's contemporaries, during the Warring States era, to describe the shared ethnicity of all Chinese; Chinese people called themselves Hua Ren. Regionally they called themselves people of the area they grew up in, the Baiyue who are now called "Han Chinese" did not call themselves Han. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiyue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiyue When reading this section I noticed a "Han Chinese" bias. >The Han Chinese referred to the various non-Han "barbarian" peoples of southern China as "Baiyue", saying they possessed habits like adapting to water, having their hair cropped short and tattooed. The Han also said their language was "animal shrieking" and that they lacked morals, modesty, civilization and culture. The actual book linked calls them "citizens of Han" not "Han Chinese". https://books.google.com/books/content?id=Y3oSAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA94&img=1&pgis=1&dq=citizens+of+han&bul=1&sig=ACfU3U0CpnhsAK3uu3xHhZXgbHjdMLcaxw&edge=0 https://books.google.com/books/content?id=Y3oSAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA... Han Chinese is like Apple retronaming all of the OSes that run on iPhone as iOS, the same way the Chinese government is doing the same for all the people's historical names of what they called themselves.
jacobolus 5y ago
Sweden is something like 20% foreign immigrants and another 5% who are children of 2 immigrant parents. For the past half century Sweden has taken in a lot of refugees and other immigrants, and has more foreign residents per capita than the USA. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden Taiwan is 3% foreign immigrants, Japan is 2%.
- jacobolus 5y ago
  (Sweden is comparable in proportion of foreign immigrants to New York, Florida, or Hawaii; a bit lower than California; much more than most US states. As far as diversity is concerned, Japan/Taiwan are more like West Virginia.)
- silicon2401 5y ago
  The article doesn't say where those immigrants are from. Swedes and Norwegians have different cultures and histories, but there's a huge difference between 20% Norwegian immigrants and 20% Chinese immigrants
  - jacobolus 5y ago
    According to Wikipedia the biggest groups are Syrians, Iraqis, and people from the former Yugoslavia. There are also a lot of Finns. Then there are Poles, Iranians, Somalis, Afghans, Turks, Germans, Eritreans, Thais, Indians, Norwegians, Danes, Chinese, Romanians, Etc. Something like 5% of Swedish-born residents are descended from Finns if you go back a few generations (not counted among foreign-born immigrants).
  - eesmith 5y ago
    I found a spreadsheet at https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/befolkning/befolkningens-sammansattning/befolkningsstatistik/pong/tabell-och-diagram/helarsstatistik--riket/befolkning-efter-fodelseland-och-ursprungsland-31-december-2020-totalt/ https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/befo... (Thanks Google Translate!) 2 million are not born in Sweden. Of these, the top 10 are: Syrien 193,594 Irak 146,440 Finland 140,337 Polen 93,762 Iran 81,301 Somalia 70,184 Jugoslavien 63,419 Afghanistan 60,858 Bosnien och Hercegovina 60,161 Turkiet 52,628 (The bottom includes the 1 person from Tuvalu.) Then there's "born in Sweden, both parents from the same foreign country" Finland 62,042 Irak 58,864 Syrien 32,829 Jugoslavien 30,903 (Yugoslavia) Somalia 30,743 "Born in Sweden, parents from two different foreign countries, father's country" Jugoslavien 13,111 Irak 10,530 Syrien 7,880 Libanon 7,604 Turkiet 5,969 "Born in Sweden, parents from two different foreign countries, mother's country" Finland 13,968 Jugoslavien 10,696 Syrien 9,381 Polen 5,949 (Poland) Libanon 5,645 "Born in Sweden, mother from Sweden, foreign-born father" Finland 65,872 Danmark 29,235 Norge 27,275 (Norway) Tyskland 23,670 (Germany) Förenade kungariket 16,965 (UK) "Born in Sweden, father from Sweden, foreign-born mother" Finland 113,178 Norge 39,676 Tyskland 25,560 Danmark 22,990 Polen 16,279
whatshisface 5y ago
I've heard this argument before, but is there any reason to believe it? What exactly about diversity stops social programs from working? Also, if diversity is the problem (hypothetically) why can't we implement Swedish/Japanese/Taiwanese stuff in those American towns with no diversity? Without any more explanation this sounds like one of those things where you find two statistics about two countries and say "this explains the difference."
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-diversity-cr https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-diversity-cr... > Putnam’s study, which used a large, nationally representative sample of nearly 30,000 Americans, found that people living in more diverse areas reported lower levels of trust in their neighbors. They also reported less interest in voting, volunteering, and giving to charity. In other words, greater diversity seemed to be linked to both feelings and behaviors that threaten a sense of community. The finding was alarming to many people, including Putnam himself, because the U.S. continues to grow in racial and ethnic diversity with each passing decade. The authors hand wave his data by saying white people are to blame. > In other words, greater distrust may stem from prejudice rather than from diversity per se. Therefore, Putnam’s conclusion that racial diversity leads to less altruism and cooperation amongst neighbors was incorrect. If there is a downside to diversity, it has less to do with the behavior of racial minorities and more to do with how Whites feel when living amongst non-Whites. They attempt to decouple diversity and prejudice, but that is completely illogical. Their logic is if you asked a minority if they feel more comfortable with a jury that is made of people who are not of a similar culture and racial background as them they would, but white people wouldn’t. That is ridiculous.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    >Past research has shown that Blacks and Hispanics, on average, report less trusting attitudes than do Whites. Without controlling for this, neighborhoods with more Blacks and Hispanics will appear to have lower “trust,” but for reasons having nothing to do with the degree of diversity. The linked article has a lot of stuff about how the Putnam study misinterprets its data.
addicted 5y ago
Yeah, no. This is a very outdated stereotype. Sweden, for example, is already very diverse and is getting increasingly more so.
- silicon2401 5y ago
  It'll be a great data point to see what happens when a modern, homogenous country becomes more diverse, in contrast with Japan and Korea that aren't likely to follow the same path anytime soon.

nivenkos 5y ago

What does this have to do with ethnicity?

GhettoComputers 5y ago
People trust those that look more like them. It’s just human nature. It’s why people say all all white jury is racist when defendants are black, or why cops are racist. Putnam’s diversity study also confirmed it. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-diversity-create-distrust/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-diversity-cr... the authors hand save the data with the usual ham fisted white people are racist retort. Sociologists aren't respected because of authors like them who have no basis in reality. It isn’t the only factor; China does it through culture, or Sinofication. https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization “Han Chinese” isn’t based on genetics it’s many different races that call themselves Han because they share culture. This is historically what happened in China and is now happening in Africa and South America.
- silicon2401 5y ago
  > “Han Chinese” isn’t based on genetics it’s many different races that call themselves Han because they share culture. Not quite. Han Chinese is a specific ethnicity. But it is true that "Chinese” isn’t based on genetics, it’s many different races that call themselves "Chinese" because they share culture. Or to cover all cases, it's many different races that the Chinese government calls "Chinese" to push a facade of homogeneity, marginalize minority peoples like Uyghurs, and marginalize minority languages and cultures in China that aren't Han Chinese, though their current nationality is Chinese.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    What do you mean about it being a specific ethnicity? From what Chinese people say and the history of it, "Han Chinese" is a recent concept and used like you said to push homogenuity. Its like calling people black, white or other nebulous terms. The Cantonese language is being removed in China but the people are still Han for instance.
    - silicon2401 5y ago
      I mean that Han Chinese is a specific ethnicity. It's a documented thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_East_Asians#Genetic_history_of_Han_Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_East_Asians... > the northern and southern Han Chinese are genetically closest to each other and it finds that the genetic characteristics of present-day northern Han Chinese were already formed as early as three thousand years ago in the Central Plain area.[22]
      - GhettoComputers 5y ago
        If you look at the history of Han Chinese, they called themselves many different names. >Among some southern Han Chinese varieties such as Cantonese, Hakka and Minnan, a different term exists – Tang Chinese (Chinese: 唐人; pinyin: Táng Rén, literally "the people of Tang"), derived from the later Tang dynasty, regarded as another zenith of Chinese civilization. >The term "Huaxia" was used by Confucius's contemporaries, during the Warring States era, to describe the shared ethnicity of all Chinese; Chinese people called themselves Hua Ren. Regionally they called themselves people of the area they grew up in, the Baiyue who are now called "Han Chinese" did not call themselves Han. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiyue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiyue When reading this section I noticed a "Han Chinese" bias. >The Han Chinese referred to the various non-Han "barbarian" peoples of southern China as "Baiyue", saying they possessed habits like adapting to water, having their hair cropped short and tattooed. The Han also said their language was "animal shrieking" and that they lacked morals, modesty, civilization and culture. The actual book linked calls them "citizens of Han" not "Han Chinese". https://books.google.com/books/content?id=Y3oSAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA94&img=1&pgis=1&dq=citizens+of+han&bul=1&sig=ACfU3U0CpnhsAK3uu3xHhZXgbHjdMLcaxw&edge=0 https://books.google.com/books/content?id=Y3oSAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA... Han Chinese is like Apple retronaming all of the OSes that run on iPhone as iOS, the same way the Chinese government is doing the same for all the people's historical names of what they called themselves.

jacobolus 5y ago

Sweden is something like 20% foreign immigrants and another 5% who are children of 2 immigrant parents. For the past half century Sweden has taken in a lot of refugees and other immigrants, and has more foreign residents per capita than the USA. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden Taiwan is 3% foreign immigrants, Japan is 2%.

jacobolus 5y ago
(Sweden is comparable in proportion of foreign immigrants to New York, Florida, or Hawaii; a bit lower than California; much more than most US states. As far as diversity is concerned, Japan/Taiwan are more like West Virginia.)
silicon2401 5y ago
The article doesn't say where those immigrants are from. Swedes and Norwegians have different cultures and histories, but there's a huge difference between 20% Norwegian immigrants and 20% Chinese immigrants
- jacobolus 5y ago
  According to Wikipedia the biggest groups are Syrians, Iraqis, and people from the former Yugoslavia. There are also a lot of Finns. Then there are Poles, Iranians, Somalis, Afghans, Turks, Germans, Eritreans, Thais, Indians, Norwegians, Danes, Chinese, Romanians, Etc. Something like 5% of Swedish-born residents are descended from Finns if you go back a few generations (not counted among foreign-born immigrants).
- eesmith 5y ago
  I found a spreadsheet at https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/befolkning/befolkningens-sammansattning/befolkningsstatistik/pong/tabell-och-diagram/helarsstatistik--riket/befolkning-efter-fodelseland-och-ursprungsland-31-december-2020-totalt/ https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/befo... (Thanks Google Translate!) 2 million are not born in Sweden. Of these, the top 10 are: Syrien 193,594 Irak 146,440 Finland 140,337 Polen 93,762 Iran 81,301 Somalia 70,184 Jugoslavien 63,419 Afghanistan 60,858 Bosnien och Hercegovina 60,161 Turkiet 52,628 (The bottom includes the 1 person from Tuvalu.) Then there's "born in Sweden, both parents from the same foreign country" Finland 62,042 Irak 58,864 Syrien 32,829 Jugoslavien 30,903 (Yugoslavia) Somalia 30,743 "Born in Sweden, parents from two different foreign countries, father's country" Jugoslavien 13,111 Irak 10,530 Syrien 7,880 Libanon 7,604 Turkiet 5,969 "Born in Sweden, parents from two different foreign countries, mother's country" Finland 13,968 Jugoslavien 10,696 Syrien 9,381 Polen 5,949 (Poland) Libanon 5,645 "Born in Sweden, mother from Sweden, foreign-born father" Finland 65,872 Danmark 29,235 Norge 27,275 (Norway) Tyskland 23,670 (Germany) Förenade kungariket 16,965 (UK) "Born in Sweden, father from Sweden, foreign-born mother" Finland 113,178 Norge 39,676 Tyskland 25,560 Danmark 22,990 Polen 16,279

whatshisface 5y ago

I've heard this argument before, but is there any reason to believe it? What exactly about diversity stops social programs from working? Also, if diversity is the problem (hypothetically) why can't we implement Swedish/Japanese/Taiwanese stuff in those American towns with no diversity? Without any more explanation this sounds like one of those things where you find two statistics about two countries and say "this explains the difference."

GhettoComputers 5y ago
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-diversity-cr https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-diversity-cr... > Putnam’s study, which used a large, nationally representative sample of nearly 30,000 Americans, found that people living in more diverse areas reported lower levels of trust in their neighbors. They also reported less interest in voting, volunteering, and giving to charity. In other words, greater diversity seemed to be linked to both feelings and behaviors that threaten a sense of community. The finding was alarming to many people, including Putnam himself, because the U.S. continues to grow in racial and ethnic diversity with each passing decade. The authors hand wave his data by saying white people are to blame. > In other words, greater distrust may stem from prejudice rather than from diversity per se. Therefore, Putnam’s conclusion that racial diversity leads to less altruism and cooperation amongst neighbors was incorrect. If there is a downside to diversity, it has less to do with the behavior of racial minorities and more to do with how Whites feel when living amongst non-Whites. They attempt to decouple diversity and prejudice, but that is completely illogical. Their logic is if you asked a minority if they feel more comfortable with a jury that is made of people who are not of a similar culture and racial background as them they would, but white people wouldn’t. That is ridiculous.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  >Past research has shown that Blacks and Hispanics, on average, report less trusting attitudes than do Whites. Without controlling for this, neighborhoods with more Blacks and Hispanics will appear to have lower “trust,” but for reasons having nothing to do with the degree of diversity. The linked article has a lot of stuff about how the Putnam study misinterprets its data.

addicted 5y ago

Yeah, no. This is a very outdated stereotype. Sweden, for example, is already very diverse and is getting increasingly more so.

silicon2401 5y ago
It'll be a great data point to see what happens when a modern, homogenous country becomes more diverse, in contrast with Japan and Korea that aren't likely to follow the same path anytime soon.