5 ms·

> Like here in Stockholm even 60m2 is getting very pricy (~350-450k USD). Isn't that still really cheap compared to NY or Silicon Valley? Rising housing prices

by ascar 5y ago

> Like here in Stockholm even 60m2 is getting very pricy (~350-450k USD). Isn't that still really cheap compared to NY or Silicon Valley? Rising housing prices has more to do with pressure to move to a select few cities rather than walkability or rising population. E.g. in Germany housing in Munich, Hamburg or Frankfurt costs multiples of housing in smaller eastern German cities.

nivenkos 5y ago
Yeah, but the salaries are much, much lower. SF: ~$167k USD p.a. - https://www.builtinsf.com/salaries/dev-engineer/software-engineer/san-francisco https://www.builtinsf.com/salaries/dev-engineer/software-eng... Stockholm: 45k SEK per month = ~$63k USD p.a. - https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/stockholm-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,9_IM1136_KO10,27.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/stockholm-software-engine... Taxes are also much higher (especially if your employer has good health insurance coverage in the US, so the added benefits are less). Like I pay an average 40% rate on income plus 25% sales tax, the marginal rate on income (and RSUs, etc.) is 56%! It's really painful for stuff like housing which is a similar price (and increasing!), or inelastic international goods like electronics, cars, fuel (which is also heavily taxed), etc. Americans are incredibly lucky - far higher wages, and the freedom to manage your own finances (not forced to pay for irresponsible parents' lifestyle choices through extremely high taxes).
- cudgy 5y ago
  “Americans are incredibly lucky - far higher wages, and the freedom to manage your own finances (not forced to pay for irresponsible parents' lifestyle choices through extremely high taxes).” USA is a huge nation with extreme variations in housing costs and salaries depending on location. Most workers get few benefits, no vacation time, and meager government benefits. Homeless people wander most areas especially urban due to these issues. Still think Americans are lucky?
- Gwypaas 5y ago
  Don't forget the 31.42% payroll tax that's hidden from your salary but a tax right on it. A salary of 50k SEK costs the employer 65.7k SEK on their books, which is what actually matters. The actual marginal taxrate flowing from your employers books at that level is somewhere up at 75%-80%, not even counting sales tax when you use the money.
  - nivenkos 5y ago
    Yeah, but even considering that, the gross salaries are still much lower. Taxes are too high (on income), and wages are too low.
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    The US has a 7.5% employer side payroll tax up to some limit. Effective marginal tax rates in the US are higher than they look at a glance.
- Maarten88 5y ago
  > remember those freedoms can also destroy your life, if you end up on the other end. Americans have to step over homeless people on the sidewalks, who got fired, who got sick while uninsured, who are addicted or mentally ill. Those who do well live in suburbia, where their kids are also not that free, going outside alone is too dangerous. Those taxes pay for other forms of freedom
  - nivenkos 5y ago
    I support universal healthcare, free life-long education and universal paid leave. I don't support inviting 3 million refugees (to a nation of only 11 million people at the time) when we have no spare housing, or being forced to fund others' childcare (it's a lifestyle choice). Taxes can be much better managed.
- ptr 5y ago
  For software engineers, there are employers in Stockholm that pay much more than 63k USD p.a. A good income combined with the low mortgage interest rate (~1.4%) and the basically tax-free investment accounts (ISK/KF) make Stockholm a pretty good place to make money in over time.
- cageface 5y ago
  I was just in Italy and it seemed like all the restaurants were packed every night. They're not cheap. How are people able to eat out so much in EU on these salaries?
  - nickthemagicman 5y ago
    If 5 people go out 5 nights a weeks there will be the same crowd as if 10 people go out 2 nights a week. Maybe there's just a ton of people and not a lot of restaurants and people like to eat out occasionally. The immediate conclusion doesn't have to be that the Italians have a bunch of money that they are being frivolous with. There are other options.
    - cageface 5y ago
      I’m not assuming they’re being frivolous I’m just trying to figure out the economics. There are loads and loads of restaurants everywhere.
      - nickthemagicman 5y ago
        'loads and loads' is kind of not quantitative enough imo. Not saying you're wrong. I've just read that Europeans make objectively WAYYYY less than American's in tech jobs to a staggering depressing amount for the same amount of work... So just rustles my jimmies to see unscientific hearsay rumours about them to make their situation worse.
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    >They're not cheap. They are. Pizza Margarita in Naples cost 4 Euro when I was there in 2019.
    - cageface 5y ago
      I was just in Italy the last few months and it's true that street food is cheap but normal restaurants are similar to US prices and those places were packed every night in every city I visited.
ju-st 5y ago
The ratio between real estate price and income is much higher in many European cities compared to the US: https://www.ubs.com/global/en/wealth-management/insights/2021/global-real-estate-bubble-index.html https://www.ubs.com/global/en/wealth-management/insights/202...
ptr 5y ago
I think the original poster is off by a bit, 350-450k USD for 60m2 is what you pay outside Stockholm. In the city proper, it's ~770k USD for 60m2. Basically this segregates society into the "haves" and the "have nots".

by ascar 5y ago

nivenkos 5y ago

Yeah, but the salaries are much, much lower. SF: ~$167k USD p.a. - https://www.builtinsf.com/salaries/dev-engineer/software-engineer/san-francisco https://www.builtinsf.com/salaries/dev-engineer/software-eng... Stockholm: 45k SEK per month = ~$63k USD p.a. - https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/stockholm-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,9_IM1136_KO10,27.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/stockholm-software-engine... Taxes are also much higher (especially if your employer has good health insurance coverage in the US, so the added benefits are less). Like I pay an average 40% rate on income plus 25% sales tax, the marginal rate on income (and RSUs, etc.) is 56%! It's really painful for stuff like housing which is a similar price (and increasing!), or inelastic international goods like electronics, cars, fuel (which is also heavily taxed), etc. Americans are incredibly lucky - far higher wages, and the freedom to manage your own finances (not forced to pay for irresponsible parents' lifestyle choices through extremely high taxes).

cudgy 5y ago
“Americans are incredibly lucky - far higher wages, and the freedom to manage your own finances (not forced to pay for irresponsible parents' lifestyle choices through extremely high taxes).” USA is a huge nation with extreme variations in housing costs and salaries depending on location. Most workers get few benefits, no vacation time, and meager government benefits. Homeless people wander most areas especially urban due to these issues. Still think Americans are lucky?
Gwypaas 5y ago
Don't forget the 31.42% payroll tax that's hidden from your salary but a tax right on it. A salary of 50k SEK costs the employer 65.7k SEK on their books, which is what actually matters. The actual marginal taxrate flowing from your employers books at that level is somewhere up at 75%-80%, not even counting sales tax when you use the money.
- nivenkos 5y ago
  Yeah, but even considering that, the gross salaries are still much lower. Taxes are too high (on income), and wages are too low.
- maxerickson 5y ago
  The US has a 7.5% employer side payroll tax up to some limit. Effective marginal tax rates in the US are higher than they look at a glance.
Maarten88 5y ago
> remember those freedoms can also destroy your life, if you end up on the other end. Americans have to step over homeless people on the sidewalks, who got fired, who got sick while uninsured, who are addicted or mentally ill. Those who do well live in suburbia, where their kids are also not that free, going outside alone is too dangerous. Those taxes pay for other forms of freedom
- nivenkos 5y ago
  I support universal healthcare, free life-long education and universal paid leave. I don't support inviting 3 million refugees (to a nation of only 11 million people at the time) when we have no spare housing, or being forced to fund others' childcare (it's a lifestyle choice). Taxes can be much better managed.
ptr 5y ago
For software engineers, there are employers in Stockholm that pay much more than 63k USD p.a. A good income combined with the low mortgage interest rate (~1.4%) and the basically tax-free investment accounts (ISK/KF) make Stockholm a pretty good place to make money in over time.
cageface 5y ago
I was just in Italy and it seemed like all the restaurants were packed every night. They're not cheap. How are people able to eat out so much in EU on these salaries?
- nickthemagicman 5y ago
  If 5 people go out 5 nights a weeks there will be the same crowd as if 10 people go out 2 nights a week. Maybe there's just a ton of people and not a lot of restaurants and people like to eat out occasionally. The immediate conclusion doesn't have to be that the Italians have a bunch of money that they are being frivolous with. There are other options.
  - cageface 5y ago
    I’m not assuming they’re being frivolous I’m just trying to figure out the economics. There are loads and loads of restaurants everywhere.
    - nickthemagicman 5y ago
      'loads and loads' is kind of not quantitative enough imo. Not saying you're wrong. I've just read that Europeans make objectively WAYYYY less than American's in tech jobs to a staggering depressing amount for the same amount of work... So just rustles my jimmies to see unscientific hearsay rumours about them to make their situation worse.
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  >They're not cheap. They are. Pizza Margarita in Naples cost 4 Euro when I was there in 2019.
  - cageface 5y ago
    I was just in Italy the last few months and it's true that street food is cheap but normal restaurants are similar to US prices and those places were packed every night in every city I visited.

ju-st 5y ago

The ratio between real estate price and income is much higher in many European cities compared to the US: https://www.ubs.com/global/en/wealth-management/insights/2021/global-real-estate-bubble-index.html https://www.ubs.com/global/en/wealth-management/insights/202...

ptr 5y ago

I think the original poster is off by a bit, 350-450k USD for 60m2 is what you pay outside Stockholm. In the city proper, it's ~770k USD for 60m2. Basically this segregates society into the "haves" and the "have nots".