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If you're living somewhere urban that's built out properly (e.g. not a residential-only section of suburbia pretending to be a proper neighborhood) your schlepp

If you're living somewhere urban that's built out properly (e.g. not a residential-only section of suburbia pretending to be a proper neighborhood) your schlepping shouldn't be any longer than a 15-minute walk either way, at which point instead of doing the periodic bulk shopping that cars incentivize, you just pick up a limited amount of stuff as you need it every day or every other day. A lot of U.S. cities have gotten this fundamentally wrong by just not being dense enough to support businesses like this and/or zoning strict residential instead of allowing natural development of small stores, so you end up with neighborhoods that are nominally walkable but that are still pointless without a car because there aren't any businesses at all within a mile radius of your home.

jseban 5y ago
I grew up in such a properly built out environment, and I just think it's a complete waste of time and effort to insist on such inefficient and inconvenient modes of transportation, and I hate wasting time and effort on recurring daily chores, I just want it to be as efficient as possible. You rely on cars/trucks indirectly anyway, that bring the groceries to your closest store, and deliver your packages so what's the different if you drive all the way to your doorstep, or make a pointless boring schlep for the last 15mins every day. You can also just put every public transportation stop 15mins away from everyones house so you're forced to walk the last bit, look walkable paradise!
- crooked-v 5y ago
  > inefficient and inconvenient Just the other day I was about to start cooking but realized I was out of butter, so I walked about 5 minutes to a nearby store, got some, and walked back. It would have literally taken me more time and effort to drive to a store nearby with parking than just walking. The same holds for most household basics (paper towels, garbage bags, etc), for which I have about a dozen options within 15 minutes of my home, ranging from cramped bodega-type stores to large grocery stores. > You rely on cars/trucks indirectly anyway, that bring the groceries to your closest store, and deliver your packages so what's the different First, basic efficiency of scale when it comes to general impact on the environment; second, as I mention above, it would literally take me longer to do it all with a car than just walk.
  - jseban 5y ago
    Yeah but now you are optimising for the minority case at the expense of making the most common case worse.
    - detaro 5y ago
      the most common case surely is groceries?
    - crooked-v 5y ago
      The most common case is that I'm picking up about three days' worth of ingredients at a time, in which case I walk either five or eight minutes (depending on which shop has the better stuff for my list) and carry home one large grocery bag. Since I don't need to worry about parking or traffic, I can fit this into my schedule whenever and usually do so when I'm already on my way home from somewhere else. The actual minority case is that I'm picking up something in bulk (replacing pantry stock, getting supplies for a party, etc), in which case I might switch to using my car, depending on how heavy or unwieldy it is for a half-mile walk.
      - jseban 5y ago
        Three days of ingredients is a lot, with your toilet paper and laundry detergent and everything, this breaks down immediately if you're only two people. So if you are a couple then both of you have to go shopping, that's twice the time you spend. Not to mention if you are a family
        crooked-v 5y ago
        Three days of food ingredients for two people isn't actually a lot, assuming you already have bulk staples (flour, sugar, rice, etc) in your pantry. I'm already including all the other incidentals outside of bulk staples: add occasional toilet paper rolls, paper towels, olive oil and vinegar, minor snacks, etc, and you get the one large grocery bag on average per trip. Maybe two if you're eating things that are bulky to carry (e.g. kale or something with a ton of eggs). Like, come on. No typical two-person household is going through a full package of toilet paper and an entire mid-sized bottle of laundry detergent every three days.
- rekado 5y ago
  Hmm, I find it very hard to relate to this perspective. Perhaps this is a cultural difference: I don't value efficiency in my life nearly as much as you seem to do. I don't go out of my way to waste time, but I'm perfectly happy to walk through the quiet roads while carrying groceries, thinking about what I've recently read, wondering about things I happen to see on my walk ---such as the Jugendstil reliefs on facades, a very inefficient type of decoration---, trying to identify trees and shrubs, etc. I also really don't mind taking the time to write this comment, even though there's nothing efficient about communicating like this. My work and art likewise are not efficient --- elegant perhaps, pretty even; but no artifact I leave behind is primarily efficient (unless it's code that was meant to be efficient only, the worst kind of code). I used so many words to inefficiently say: I feel that efficiency is rather overrated. I won't ever give up being slow and being at ease with living slowly --- with plenty of opportunity for life to happen by accident. PS: most of the public transportation stops are 10 mins away from where I live. Even the train. It's 10 mins away by bus ;)
  - jseban 5y ago
    Yeah, but my point is that the things everyone must do should be made as efficient as possible, so that everyone is free to choose how they want to waste their time. We shouldn't force anyone to spend their time and effort in a specific way by deliberately making something less efficient that's just stupid.
    - detaro 5y ago
      Good, then please don't build cities that force me to use a car if I want to live efficiently.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    For me, it’s not about carrying the groceries, but the mental and temporal overhead of thinking about what I needed, making a list, walking however many additional minutes, spending 15 minutes shopping/paying/packing, etc would strike me as a terrific waste if done daily. I used to do that when I interned in Germany. The market was near the bus stop and our dorm had limited fridge space, so I’d tend to buy and eat the same day (and rarely cook from scratch). That wouldn’t work so well to feed a family of four that way.
stavros 5y ago
That's a good point, we walk to the supermarket (or the farmer's market) multiple times a week, get one or two bags and go home. That way we don't have to have a huge space/fridge/kitchen to store everything in, either.
MagnumOpus 5y ago
If you're living somewhere urban that's built out properly you have (or ought to have) doorstep grocery delivery costing $1-$5. In the UK at least, there are at least 5 competitive services offering that in every city, including most major supermarket chains, so there is no need to shlep, ever. I only go to the supermarket for fresh bread/milk occasionally in between deliveries.

jseban 5y ago

I grew up in such a properly built out environment, and I just think it's a complete waste of time and effort to insist on such inefficient and inconvenient modes of transportation, and I hate wasting time and effort on recurring daily chores, I just want it to be as efficient as possible. You rely on cars/trucks indirectly anyway, that bring the groceries to your closest store, and deliver your packages so what's the different if you drive all the way to your doorstep, or make a pointless boring schlep for the last 15mins every day. You can also just put every public transportation stop 15mins away from everyones house so you're forced to walk the last bit, look walkable paradise!

crooked-v 5y ago
> inefficient and inconvenient Just the other day I was about to start cooking but realized I was out of butter, so I walked about 5 minutes to a nearby store, got some, and walked back. It would have literally taken me more time and effort to drive to a store nearby with parking than just walking. The same holds for most household basics (paper towels, garbage bags, etc), for which I have about a dozen options within 15 minutes of my home, ranging from cramped bodega-type stores to large grocery stores. > You rely on cars/trucks indirectly anyway, that bring the groceries to your closest store, and deliver your packages so what's the different First, basic efficiency of scale when it comes to general impact on the environment; second, as I mention above, it would literally take me longer to do it all with a car than just walk.
- jseban 5y ago
  Yeah but now you are optimising for the minority case at the expense of making the most common case worse.
  - detaro 5y ago
    the most common case surely is groceries?
  - crooked-v 5y ago
    The most common case is that I'm picking up about three days' worth of ingredients at a time, in which case I walk either five or eight minutes (depending on which shop has the better stuff for my list) and carry home one large grocery bag. Since I don't need to worry about parking or traffic, I can fit this into my schedule whenever and usually do so when I'm already on my way home from somewhere else. The actual minority case is that I'm picking up something in bulk (replacing pantry stock, getting supplies for a party, etc), in which case I might switch to using my car, depending on how heavy or unwieldy it is for a half-mile walk.
    - jseban 5y ago
      Three days of ingredients is a lot, with your toilet paper and laundry detergent and everything, this breaks down immediately if you're only two people. So if you are a couple then both of you have to go shopping, that's twice the time you spend. Not to mention if you are a family
      - crooked-v 5y ago
        Three days of food ingredients for two people isn't actually a lot, assuming you already have bulk staples (flour, sugar, rice, etc) in your pantry. I'm already including all the other incidentals outside of bulk staples: add occasional toilet paper rolls, paper towels, olive oil and vinegar, minor snacks, etc, and you get the one large grocery bag on average per trip. Maybe two if you're eating things that are bulky to carry (e.g. kale or something with a ton of eggs). Like, come on. No typical two-person household is going through a full package of toilet paper and an entire mid-sized bottle of laundry detergent every three days.
rekado 5y ago
Hmm, I find it very hard to relate to this perspective. Perhaps this is a cultural difference: I don't value efficiency in my life nearly as much as you seem to do. I don't go out of my way to waste time, but I'm perfectly happy to walk through the quiet roads while carrying groceries, thinking about what I've recently read, wondering about things I happen to see on my walk ---such as the Jugendstil reliefs on facades, a very inefficient type of decoration---, trying to identify trees and shrubs, etc. I also really don't mind taking the time to write this comment, even though there's nothing efficient about communicating like this. My work and art likewise are not efficient --- elegant perhaps, pretty even; but no artifact I leave behind is primarily efficient (unless it's code that was meant to be efficient only, the worst kind of code). I used so many words to inefficiently say: I feel that efficiency is rather overrated. I won't ever give up being slow and being at ease with living slowly --- with plenty of opportunity for life to happen by accident. PS: most of the public transportation stops are 10 mins away from where I live. Even the train. It's 10 mins away by bus ;)
- jseban 5y ago
  Yeah, but my point is that the things everyone must do should be made as efficient as possible, so that everyone is free to choose how they want to waste their time. We shouldn't force anyone to spend their time and effort in a specific way by deliberately making something less efficient that's just stupid.
  - detaro 5y ago
    Good, then please don't build cities that force me to use a car if I want to live efficiently.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  For me, it’s not about carrying the groceries, but the mental and temporal overhead of thinking about what I needed, making a list, walking however many additional minutes, spending 15 minutes shopping/paying/packing, etc would strike me as a terrific waste if done daily. I used to do that when I interned in Germany. The market was near the bus stop and our dorm had limited fridge space, so I’d tend to buy and eat the same day (and rarely cook from scratch). That wouldn’t work so well to feed a family of four that way.

stavros 5y ago

That's a good point, we walk to the supermarket (or the farmer's market) multiple times a week, get one or two bags and go home. That way we don't have to have a huge space/fridge/kitchen to store everything in, either.

MagnumOpus 5y ago

If you're living somewhere urban that's built out properly you have (or ought to have) doorstep grocery delivery costing $1-$5. In the UK at least, there are at least 5 competitive services offering that in every city, including most major supermarket chains, so there is no need to shlep, ever. I only go to the supermarket for fresh bread/milk occasionally in between deliveries.