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FooBarWidget 5y ago
Well for one, Xinjiang is nowhere near comparable to Nazi Germany burning jews. Look at this recent article by AP: https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9 https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-ch... Not so long ago, it was said that Xinjiang was "worse than the holocaust". But now "The barbed wire is almost gone. So are the armored personnel carriers. Young [supposedly genocided] Uyghur men are back on the streets" and "sense of normality is creeping back in". What's more, this "Nazi Germany-like regime" is doing all this voluntarily?! The fact that AP backpedaled like this shows how shaky all the evidence was. There is a problem in Xinjiang, no doubt about it. But it's not the second coming of Nazi Germany. It's a heavy-handed fight against sallafist jihadists that have killed thousands of Han and Uyghur alike, with the end goal of making society safe again even if that means collateral damage and intruding on individual rights.
- ailun 5y ago
  Please cite the previous AP article that said "worse than the holocaust". I don’t believe it exists.
  - FooBarWidget 5y ago
    I did not say the AP said that. What I mean is that that was general commentary from people about what's going on in Xinjiang, based on all the reporting. For example, this: https://www.newstatesman.com/world/asia/2019/06/china-s-uyghur-detention-camps-may-be-largest-mass-incarceration-holocaust https://www.newstatesman.com/world/asia/2019/06/china-s-uygh... "largest since holocaust" Or this: https://twitter.com/SaeedTV_/status/1301991175713419264?s=20 https://twitter.com/SaeedTV_/status/1301991175713419264?s=20 "The number of deaths of Uyghur Muslims in camps or dead in China now surpasses the number of Jewish people killed in the holocaust." It was (and I argue, still is) quite common for people to call someone a "genocide denier" simply for saying "what happens in Xinjiang is bad but it's not genocide / it lacks evidence". For example: https://twitter.com/redditiosymboli/status/1387561711733936129?s=20 https://twitter.com/redditiosymboli/status/13875617117339361...
    - schleck8 5y ago
      Come on man, "New Statesman" and Twitter?
    - ailun 5y ago
      Then that's a nice rhetorical trick, but dishonest. A direct quote from you: The fact that AP backpedaled like this shows how shaky all the evidence was. You're comparing your impression of a bunch of poor quality news with an article by the AP and calling it backpedaling. The AP did not backpedal, because it never said that Xinjiang was worse than the Holocaust. Further, things can change with time... that AP article is saying that things used to be much worse.
      - FooBarWidget 5y ago
        Okay take a look at this then: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we... "It’s genocide, full stop [..] These are direct means of genetically reducing the Uighur population" (whose populations have grown are are now apparently showing up more often on the streets again) In any case, your focus on whether AP specifically said or didn't say something misses the bigger picture. The real world isn't a high school debate in which only strict debating rules are important. What's happening here is that the US government and the military industrial complex are manufacturing consent for a war against China, and the media is ignorantly taking the claims at face value and giving the messages a platform. Sure, the media may not always literally make the same claims word for word, but the point is that all these insinuations and mood-making still instil ideas in people's minds. That's why on the one hand "State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China" [1] while on the other hand we have people like shell0x proclaiming that China is the second coming of Nazi Germany. Have enough people with such a sentiment, and the sentiment becomes truth even if nobody explicitly said it. That's why Dutch parliament members said in parliament debates that "1 million Uyghurs are imprisoned" (not "up to"; exactly 1 million, or even more), even though "reputable" media such as AP only ever said "up to 1 million". Dutch parliament members even said "Amnesty International confirms that there's a genocide", but if you go to Amnesty International's website then the website says "there's not enough evidence for a genocide". The public and even politicians are being psychologically manipulated to accept a war against China. In the mean time, even though accusations of "genocide denial" don't come from the mainstream media, having enough people say something like that will deter other people from speaking out against the genocide narrative out of fear for being socially ostracized. For a while I feared speaking up for this exact reason. Aren't we supposed to be a free society in which we can question things? Also in the mean time, actual Uyghurs who wanted to speak out against the genocide narrative are being banned from social media platforms simply for not abiding to that narrative. [2] And I'm sure I don't need to remind you how devastating a war against China would be for the entire planet. [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUGFpVPpKQ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUGFpVPpKQ0
hnbad 5y ago
Sorry to be blunt, but I don't think you have even the faintest idea of the extent of the war of extermination the Nazis engaged in, even prior to WW2. China certainly has its smattering of Han supremacy and engages in (mostly economic) imperialism, but even the Uyghur genocide pales in comparison to any of the multiple genocides of the Nazis. What do you propose? Military invention would just mean global thermonuclear war. US sanctions against China? They'd either have to be ineffective enough not to have any significant impact (like the Huawei ban) or they'd amount to cutting off your nose to spite the face. The US (like most developed countries) is economically dependent on China at this point. China also holds a significant share of the US's debt. Cutting off China from the US would probably hurt the US more than China and nobody else would follow suit if it impacted their economy. You want the US to cut off China? Sure. Stop relying on offshore production in developing nations. Pivot back to the isolationism of the pre-WW2 era. But that would mean giving up the excessive military domination and rebuilding the domestic economy from scratch. You can try to half-ass it and move production from China into other countries but that's just delaying the inevitable (who says India isn't going to slide into genocidal fascism next, given they already have a Hindu supremacist problem?).
- throwaway12224 5y ago
  In terms of number of deaths, the CCP killed 15-55m in the Great Leap Forward. In terms of mass murders of history, they killed a lot more than many actual genocides.
  - hnbad 5y ago
    The deaths in the Great Leap Forward were largely due to famines resulting from administrative failures, it wasn't "mass murder" although it was definitely an avoidable mass death. A genocide is not defined by literal death of individuals but for killings to be part of a genocide they have to intentionally target a specific group and its culture. The Nazi's Eastern front was explicitly a war to create "Lebensraum" (living space) which went with depopulating large areas. They also deliberately initially displaced and then systematically exterminated Jewish populations. They also targeted Sinti and Roma people. For Jews they also went to the lengths of deliberately destroying their cultural artefacts as well as works they claimed to be influenced by Jewish culture. If you desperately want to pin a mass murder on historical communists, you probably want the Holodomor. But even the Holodomor seems to have at least in part been a case of administrative failure and apparatchiks not taking complaints seriously. But at least there are indicators of some level of malintent even if it may not have been intentionally genocidal. Unlike the above, the treatment of the Uyghur Muslims does qualify as genocide under most definitions as it actively seeks out to erase culture and traditions even if the settling of Han Chinese people in Uyghur territory may not. But while it involves imprisonment, so-called reeducation and arbitrary arrests, it doesn't involve mass murder. Note that what the Nazis did to Jews, Roma, Sinti and (to a lesser extent) Slavs wasn't unique in European history either (except for the technology available to them), but Europeans previously only had done this to populations in Africa or the Americas. From the victim's perspective the distinction between fascism and colonialism is at most times completely arbitrary.
bmn__ 5y ago
Objectively it isn't any different, the tacit approval of CCP means that today's generation does not meet the moral standard. > pumping money into this fascist dictatorship SNAFU; people invest money into the regime unknowingly. It should be every government's ministry of finance's responsibility to clearly mark a financial instrument (retirement fund, stock bundle etc.) as having ties to a CCP controlled company, so that at least an investor can make an informed decision; and if the parliament has passed a resolution to condemn the genocide, then it should follow through and outright ban such investments. Instead nothing happens, apathy rules, and tragically the victims of the genocide have no mindshare to lobby to change the situation. Twitter marks CCP controlled content as such, but your stock portfolio and broker do not.
secondaryacct 5y ago
I m a Hong Konger, I have no debt, earn 10k USD a month, pay reasonable taxes for reasonable services and get annoyed like everyone at the yellow vs blue bullshit polarisation of the public discourse. We're fine, but I do feel bad for the americans who live in some sort of delusion that their exploitation is freedom.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- shell0x 5y ago
  Friends from HK including my partner who left that place before it turns into a cesspit like China tend to disagree but good luck to you! You may not earn much in other countries, so you may stay since you don't care about freedom nor values anyway.

[flagged]

Well for one, Xinjiang is nowhere near comparable to Nazi Germany burning jews. Look at this recent article by AP: https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9 https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-ch... Not so long ago, it was said that Xinjiang was "worse than the holocaust". But now "The barbed wire is almost gone. So are the armored personnel carriers. Young [supposedly genocided] Uyghur men are back on the streets" and "sense of normality is creeping back in". What's more, this "Nazi Germany-like regime" is doing all this voluntarily?! The fact that AP backpedaled like this shows how shaky all the evidence was. There is a problem in Xinjiang, no doubt about it. But it's not the second coming of Nazi Germany. It's a heavy-handed fight against sallafist jihadists that have killed thousands of Han and Uyghur alike, with the end goal of making society safe again even if that means collateral damage and intruding on individual rights.

ailun 5y ago
Please cite the previous AP article that said "worse than the holocaust". I don’t believe it exists.
- FooBarWidget 5y ago
  I did not say the AP said that. What I mean is that that was general commentary from people about what's going on in Xinjiang, based on all the reporting. For example, this: https://www.newstatesman.com/world/asia/2019/06/china-s-uyghur-detention-camps-may-be-largest-mass-incarceration-holocaust https://www.newstatesman.com/world/asia/2019/06/china-s-uygh... "largest since holocaust" Or this: https://twitter.com/SaeedTV_/status/1301991175713419264?s=20 https://twitter.com/SaeedTV_/status/1301991175713419264?s=20 "The number of deaths of Uyghur Muslims in camps or dead in China now surpasses the number of Jewish people killed in the holocaust." It was (and I argue, still is) quite common for people to call someone a "genocide denier" simply for saying "what happens in Xinjiang is bad but it's not genocide / it lacks evidence". For example: https://twitter.com/redditiosymboli/status/1387561711733936129?s=20 https://twitter.com/redditiosymboli/status/13875617117339361...
  - schleck8 5y ago
    Come on man, "New Statesman" and Twitter?
  - ailun 5y ago
    Then that's a nice rhetorical trick, but dishonest. A direct quote from you: The fact that AP backpedaled like this shows how shaky all the evidence was. You're comparing your impression of a bunch of poor quality news with an article by the AP and calling it backpedaling. The AP did not backpedal, because it never said that Xinjiang was worse than the Holocaust. Further, things can change with time... that AP article is saying that things used to be much worse.
    - FooBarWidget 5y ago
      Okay take a look at this then: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we... "It’s genocide, full stop [..] These are direct means of genetically reducing the Uighur population" (whose populations have grown are are now apparently showing up more often on the streets again) In any case, your focus on whether AP specifically said or didn't say something misses the bigger picture. The real world isn't a high school debate in which only strict debating rules are important. What's happening here is that the US government and the military industrial complex are manufacturing consent for a war against China, and the media is ignorantly taking the claims at face value and giving the messages a platform. Sure, the media may not always literally make the same claims word for word, but the point is that all these insinuations and mood-making still instil ideas in people's minds. That's why on the one hand "State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China" [1] while on the other hand we have people like shell0x proclaiming that China is the second coming of Nazi Germany. Have enough people with such a sentiment, and the sentiment becomes truth even if nobody explicitly said it. That's why Dutch parliament members said in parliament debates that "1 million Uyghurs are imprisoned" (not "up to"; exactly 1 million, or even more), even though "reputable" media such as AP only ever said "up to 1 million". Dutch parliament members even said "Amnesty International confirms that there's a genocide", but if you go to Amnesty International's website then the website says "there's not enough evidence for a genocide". The public and even politicians are being psychologically manipulated to accept a war against China. In the mean time, even though accusations of "genocide denial" don't come from the mainstream media, having enough people say something like that will deter other people from speaking out against the genocide narrative out of fear for being socially ostracized. For a while I feared speaking up for this exact reason. Aren't we supposed to be a free society in which we can question things? Also in the mean time, actual Uyghurs who wanted to speak out against the genocide narrative are being banned from social media platforms simply for not abiding to that narrative. [2] And I'm sure I don't need to remind you how devastating a war against China would be for the entire planet. [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUGFpVPpKQ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUGFpVPpKQ0

hnbad 5y ago

Sorry to be blunt, but I don't think you have even the faintest idea of the extent of the war of extermination the Nazis engaged in, even prior to WW2. China certainly has its smattering of Han supremacy and engages in (mostly economic) imperialism, but even the Uyghur genocide pales in comparison to any of the multiple genocides of the Nazis. What do you propose? Military invention would just mean global thermonuclear war. US sanctions against China? They'd either have to be ineffective enough not to have any significant impact (like the Huawei ban) or they'd amount to cutting off your nose to spite the face. The US (like most developed countries) is economically dependent on China at this point. China also holds a significant share of the US's debt. Cutting off China from the US would probably hurt the US more than China and nobody else would follow suit if it impacted their economy. You want the US to cut off China? Sure. Stop relying on offshore production in developing nations. Pivot back to the isolationism of the pre-WW2 era. But that would mean giving up the excessive military domination and rebuilding the domestic economy from scratch. You can try to half-ass it and move production from China into other countries but that's just delaying the inevitable (who says India isn't going to slide into genocidal fascism next, given they already have a Hindu supremacist problem?).

throwaway12224 5y ago
In terms of number of deaths, the CCP killed 15-55m in the Great Leap Forward. In terms of mass murders of history, they killed a lot more than many actual genocides.
- hnbad 5y ago
  The deaths in the Great Leap Forward were largely due to famines resulting from administrative failures, it wasn't "mass murder" although it was definitely an avoidable mass death. A genocide is not defined by literal death of individuals but for killings to be part of a genocide they have to intentionally target a specific group and its culture. The Nazi's Eastern front was explicitly a war to create "Lebensraum" (living space) which went with depopulating large areas. They also deliberately initially displaced and then systematically exterminated Jewish populations. They also targeted Sinti and Roma people. For Jews they also went to the lengths of deliberately destroying their cultural artefacts as well as works they claimed to be influenced by Jewish culture. If you desperately want to pin a mass murder on historical communists, you probably want the Holodomor. But even the Holodomor seems to have at least in part been a case of administrative failure and apparatchiks not taking complaints seriously. But at least there are indicators of some level of malintent even if it may not have been intentionally genocidal. Unlike the above, the treatment of the Uyghur Muslims does qualify as genocide under most definitions as it actively seeks out to erase culture and traditions even if the settling of Han Chinese people in Uyghur territory may not. But while it involves imprisonment, so-called reeducation and arbitrary arrests, it doesn't involve mass murder. Note that what the Nazis did to Jews, Roma, Sinti and (to a lesser extent) Slavs wasn't unique in European history either (except for the technology available to them), but Europeans previously only had done this to populations in Africa or the Americas. From the victim's perspective the distinction between fascism and colonialism is at most times completely arbitrary.

bmn__ 5y ago

Objectively it isn't any different, the tacit approval of CCP means that today's generation does not meet the moral standard. > pumping money into this fascist dictatorship SNAFU; people invest money into the regime unknowingly. It should be every government's ministry of finance's responsibility to clearly mark a financial instrument (retirement fund, stock bundle etc.) as having ties to a CCP controlled company, so that at least an investor can make an informed decision; and if the parliament has passed a resolution to condemn the genocide, then it should follow through and outright ban such investments. Instead nothing happens, apathy rules, and tragically the victims of the genocide have no mindshare to lobby to change the situation. Twitter marks CCP controlled content as such, but your stock portfolio and broker do not.

secondaryacct 5y ago

I m a Hong Konger, I have no debt, earn 10k USD a month, pay reasonable taxes for reasonable services and get annoyed like everyone at the yellow vs blue bullshit polarisation of the public discourse. We're fine, but I do feel bad for the americans who live in some sort of delusion that their exploitation is freedom.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
shell0x 5y ago
Friends from HK including my partner who left that place before it turns into a cesspit like China tend to disagree but good luck to you! You may not earn much in other countries, so you may stay since you don't care about freedom nor values anyway.