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> the people of Iran can end these sanctions at any time Sorry to bite on this off-topic thing... but, _how_? Overthrowing their government? I guess that would

> the people of Iran can end these sanctions at any time Sorry to bite on this off-topic thing... but, _how_? Overthrowing their government? I guess that would be technically true, but "at any time" seems like a weird phrase to use for that.

908B64B197 5y ago
Yes. Just look at Libya during the Arab Spring. Democracy is never given, it is earned.
- shabazahmed 5y ago
  I wouldn't say never. ex Bhutanese Democracy[1] was given by the monarchs though lot of population wanted the monarch to continue. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutanese_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutanese_democracy
- hni 5y ago
  Never given; but taken, sometimes.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > Just look at Libya during the Arab Spring. Iran at least has some sort of functioning government entity (which I, to be clear, absolutely despise), Libya collapsed completely as a result of Ghaddafi's (well deserved) downfall and it will likely be a hotbed of Islamist terrorism and instability for decades to come. I don't see any nation or block of nations willing to step up and do nation rebuilding in once-beautiful Libya outside of the EU financing terrorists aka the so-called "coast guard" to torture migrants - what makes you think any kind of revolution in Iran would be assisted by anyone? The US even abandoned the Kurds ffs.
  - toyg 5y ago
    The Iranian system also has some democratic legitimacy. Yes, the religious authority is supreme, but it's not as overtly tyrannical as the average dictatorial regimes: the religious ruler is himself elected by an assembly (similarly to what happens with the Catholic Pope), and the secular executive branch is elected (although the religious element can pre-emptively stop pesky candidates from running altogether). There is a good chunk of Iranian society that genuinely thinks their system is good, and it keeps the country somewhat stable in a region where such condition is not particularly common. Telling them to throw it all away by pointing at Libya is basically a cruel joke.
    - mehrdada 5y ago
      This characterization is ridiculous. Following the form does not make you “somewhat democratic,” nor does calling oneself Democratic People’s Republic. In addition, “the secular executive branch” comment is flat out wrong. The executive branch and candidates for presidency are explicitly obligated to believe and follow Islamic and Sharia laws.
      - toyg 5y ago
        > Following the form does not make you “somewhat democratic,” In practice, there have been elected presidents that the religious element did not really like. They did not last, and were sabotaged at every turn, but they existed. Iran is a big country and it contains a number of different power-centres, unlike, for example, North Korea. > In addition, “the secular executive branch” comment is flat out wrong. Uh, no it isn't: >> the religious element can pre-emptively stop pesky candidates from running altogether Whether this is achieved by claiming they are unbelievers or corrupt, is irrelevant. Candidates can (and do) get purged before they get a chance, but the latter part of the process is fairly democratic (which is why occasionally the "wrong" candidates do win). One of the reasons for the increasingly low turnout in recent years is precisely that purges are getting more and more indiscriminate; Iranians are not all stupid, and won't engage when they think the process is meaningless. The "secular" qualifier is there because, in practice, that's what it is - a government that cares about economy, army, police, and administration. Demonising everything is a recipe for being ignored, you should try understanding other points of view when you're trying to persuade.
        mehrdada 5y ago
        > Uh, no it isn't You are absolutely incorrect[1]. There are no ifs and buts. They absolutely positively require the candidate to assert they'd abide by Islamic law--there is not even a pretense of secularism. Which Islamic Republic lobby group did you get your propaganda from? I lived there for 20 years. If you think you know better, please cite a reference to your egregious claims. Even Khamenei himself does not make some of the claims you are making. [1]: https://rc.majlis.ir/fa/content/iran_constitution https://rc.majlis.ir/fa/content/iran_constitution
- kmeisthax 5y ago
  Libya is actually a terrible example of this. If I recall correctly, right after the Arab Spring, their country erupted into civil war, twice, and the current ceasefire is barely a year old. The reason for this is not because they chose civil war, but because Libya and many other poor countries are stuck in a local minima of dictatorship and sectarianism. Why? This chart should be illustrative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#/media/File:Libya_Product_Exports_(2019).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#/media/File:Libya_Produc... - Dinosaur juice that we took out of the ground - Dinosaur farts that we took out of the ground - Dinosaur juice that we took out of the ground and then cooked - Shiny metal that we took out of the ground In other words, all industries that, critically, do not require the people to operate. Libya is the poster child for the resource curse. In poor countries, democracy is a dangerous boondoggle that squanders the wealth of the country, and any country with an economy shaped like this that tries democracy will be swiftly punished for their obvious flaunting of basic economics. Likewise, all of the other things you see in these kinds of countries - sectarian violence, religious and ethnonationalist conflict, and so on - are all merely part and parcel of being poor.[0] Taking this back to Iran... the country is born out of geopolitical praxis, not a resource curse. The US tried to utterly fuck over Iran and turn it into Libya, in the name of fighting the Soviets. So at least part of the current hostility towards the US is still borne out of actual popular support. Yes, some Iranians would like to just enjoy a cosmopolitan software developer lifestyle, but those people are fewer in number compared to the people who want nothing to do with a country that has hypocritically denied it the right to self-determination. Maybe that will change, and people on both sides will forget long enough for us to normalize trade relations. But that's not a simple matter of uninstalling and reinstalling governments like they were device drivers. Plenty of Iranians still hate the US, and plenty of Americans do, too. [0] This is also why a lot of Donald Trump voters bought into a lot of far-right racist bullshit, as well as why many poor countries see regular genocides. Because that's exactly what you promise poor people. It's far easier to make you richer than a race or religion you don't like, than to make you richer overall.
- _pmf_ 5y ago
  Is this satire?

908B64B197 5y ago

Yes. Just look at Libya during the Arab Spring. Democracy is never given, it is earned.

shabazahmed 5y ago
I wouldn't say never. ex Bhutanese Democracy[1] was given by the monarchs though lot of population wanted the monarch to continue. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutanese_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutanese_democracy
hni 5y ago
Never given; but taken, sometimes.
mschuster91 5y ago
> Just look at Libya during the Arab Spring. Iran at least has some sort of functioning government entity (which I, to be clear, absolutely despise), Libya collapsed completely as a result of Ghaddafi's (well deserved) downfall and it will likely be a hotbed of Islamist terrorism and instability for decades to come. I don't see any nation or block of nations willing to step up and do nation rebuilding in once-beautiful Libya outside of the EU financing terrorists aka the so-called "coast guard" to torture migrants - what makes you think any kind of revolution in Iran would be assisted by anyone? The US even abandoned the Kurds ffs.
- toyg 5y ago
  The Iranian system also has some democratic legitimacy. Yes, the religious authority is supreme, but it's not as overtly tyrannical as the average dictatorial regimes: the religious ruler is himself elected by an assembly (similarly to what happens with the Catholic Pope), and the secular executive branch is elected (although the religious element can pre-emptively stop pesky candidates from running altogether). There is a good chunk of Iranian society that genuinely thinks their system is good, and it keeps the country somewhat stable in a region where such condition is not particularly common. Telling them to throw it all away by pointing at Libya is basically a cruel joke.
  - mehrdada 5y ago
    This characterization is ridiculous. Following the form does not make you “somewhat democratic,” nor does calling oneself Democratic People’s Republic. In addition, “the secular executive branch” comment is flat out wrong. The executive branch and candidates for presidency are explicitly obligated to believe and follow Islamic and Sharia laws.
    - toyg 5y ago
      > Following the form does not make you “somewhat democratic,” In practice, there have been elected presidents that the religious element did not really like. They did not last, and were sabotaged at every turn, but they existed. Iran is a big country and it contains a number of different power-centres, unlike, for example, North Korea. > In addition, “the secular executive branch” comment is flat out wrong. Uh, no it isn't: >> the religious element can pre-emptively stop pesky candidates from running altogether Whether this is achieved by claiming they are unbelievers or corrupt, is irrelevant. Candidates can (and do) get purged before they get a chance, but the latter part of the process is fairly democratic (which is why occasionally the "wrong" candidates do win). One of the reasons for the increasingly low turnout in recent years is precisely that purges are getting more and more indiscriminate; Iranians are not all stupid, and won't engage when they think the process is meaningless. The "secular" qualifier is there because, in practice, that's what it is - a government that cares about economy, army, police, and administration. Demonising everything is a recipe for being ignored, you should try understanding other points of view when you're trying to persuade.
      - mehrdada 5y ago
        > Uh, no it isn't You are absolutely incorrect[1]. There are no ifs and buts. They absolutely positively require the candidate to assert they'd abide by Islamic law--there is not even a pretense of secularism. Which Islamic Republic lobby group did you get your propaganda from? I lived there for 20 years. If you think you know better, please cite a reference to your egregious claims. Even Khamenei himself does not make some of the claims you are making. [1]: https://rc.majlis.ir/fa/content/iran_constitution https://rc.majlis.ir/fa/content/iran_constitution
kmeisthax 5y ago
Libya is actually a terrible example of this. If I recall correctly, right after the Arab Spring, their country erupted into civil war, twice, and the current ceasefire is barely a year old. The reason for this is not because they chose civil war, but because Libya and many other poor countries are stuck in a local minima of dictatorship and sectarianism. Why? This chart should be illustrative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#/media/File:Libya_Product_Exports_(2019).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#/media/File:Libya_Produc... - Dinosaur juice that we took out of the ground - Dinosaur farts that we took out of the ground - Dinosaur juice that we took out of the ground and then cooked - Shiny metal that we took out of the ground In other words, all industries that, critically, do not require the people to operate. Libya is the poster child for the resource curse. In poor countries, democracy is a dangerous boondoggle that squanders the wealth of the country, and any country with an economy shaped like this that tries democracy will be swiftly punished for their obvious flaunting of basic economics. Likewise, all of the other things you see in these kinds of countries - sectarian violence, religious and ethnonationalist conflict, and so on - are all merely part and parcel of being poor.[0] Taking this back to Iran... the country is born out of geopolitical praxis, not a resource curse. The US tried to utterly fuck over Iran and turn it into Libya, in the name of fighting the Soviets. So at least part of the current hostility towards the US is still borne out of actual popular support. Yes, some Iranians would like to just enjoy a cosmopolitan software developer lifestyle, but those people are fewer in number compared to the people who want nothing to do with a country that has hypocritically denied it the right to self-determination. Maybe that will change, and people on both sides will forget long enough for us to normalize trade relations. But that's not a simple matter of uninstalling and reinstalling governments like they were device drivers. Plenty of Iranians still hate the US, and plenty of Americans do, too. [0] This is also why a lot of Donald Trump voters bought into a lot of far-right racist bullshit, as well as why many poor countries see regular genocides. Because that's exactly what you promise poor people. It's far easier to make you richer than a race or religion you don't like, than to make you richer overall.
_pmf_ 5y ago
Is this satire?