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There are broadly two kinds of homeless: those who lost their job and are discreetly trying to get back on track... and those who choose this lifestyle and shi

There are broadly two kinds of homeless: those who lost their job and are discreetly trying to get back on track... and those who choose this lifestyle and shit all over the place, make enormous amounts of trash, smoke meth in bookstore bathrooms, steal from stores and assault people. All day long I see the second group all over town destroying stuff and causing mayhem that ends up hurting innocent bystanders. Yet when the media talks about homelessness they only speak as if all homeless are in the first group-- down on their luck and needing a helping hand and if you feel anything other than deep guilt you are less than human. The ruse is up: everyone has too many anecdotes of being assaulted, having to walk out into the street to go around heaps of garbage, watching people openly inject drugs on sidewalks in front of unwilling witnesses. There are clearly two distinct things going on and they likely have two totally different solutions. If media and politicians keep communicating as if there is only one problem, despite what our ears and eyes tell us every single day, then this will continue to get worse and the outcome will likely be the same as the 'defund the police' movement-- a voter referendum that says 'enough of this nonsense'.

Flatcircle 5y ago
We're living through an opioid epidemic and people are reframing it as a housing problem, SMH
- nverno 5y ago
  It blows my mind how out of touch people have to be to reframe the problem in this manner. Better housing is always a good thing to strive for, but clearly not the driving factor for the vast majority of homeless.
  - Flatcircle 5y ago
    The “build more housing” coalition has been winning this argument for at least 7 years. Are you under the impression that mayors haven’t been green lighting more housing and small housing pop ups? Do you think government officials have yet to implement your plan? They are building more affordable housing and yet the problem is getting worse. I drive my kids to school on the LA freeways and have seen countless people under freeway on ramps and in tent cities next to freeways shoot up drugs or stumble around, obviously high on drugs. The scope of the problem has become shocking recently. Huge trash encampments bedside every freeway. It’s not rocket science. Drive through LA, drive through San Fran. Even the main image on the linked article shows a guy who clearly shows the effects of drug abuse. If it were a drug crisis, what would the solutions be? At least try to implement those and see where it gets us instead of deny the scope of the drug abuse effect because it has a moral component.
    - nverno 5y ago
      I see the same things you do, I was actually agreeing with you that we are in a drug crisis more than anything else. It's not an easy situation to "solve" because at the end of the day people make there own choices for the most part, and it's especially hard to offer assistance when people are unpredictable or dangerous.
- UseStrict 5y ago
  Pretty much yes, can't force people to get mental health help, can't force people to quit opioids. People who think housing and access to mental health and counselling programs will solve the entire homeless crisis are incredibly short-sighted. Anecdotal for sure, but a couple of my friends have had parents who were addicts, even when they had the love and support and housing options of being with family they chose to stay on the streets, unless they decided they needed to rob a family member for some more spending money. Spreading subsidized housing out doesn't work, addicts will just hang out closer to their dealers/sources on the streets. Putting up highly concentrated housing programs just make this problem even more dense, creating a radius of exceptionally high crime. Even in the most idyllic scenario of creating perpetually well-maintained and totally free housing, many will end up choosing the streets anyways, out of convenience, mistrust, or mental health issues.
  - Flatcircle 5y ago
    This x 1000
- anon9001 5y ago
  We should just go a step further and hand out oxy or percs to addicts for free. The pills are incredibly cheap to manufacture. A few things would happen if we started handing out opiods for free: * petty crime would decrease -- it's not the drug that causes the crime, it's trying to pay for the drug * organized crime would decrease -- moving opiods is a lucrative operation, and our addicts are bankrolling very bad people by doing business with them * users would get clean product -- opiods laced with fentanyl are a huge problem and responsible for the majority of hospitalizations and overdose deaths * more users could hold stable employment and rehabilitate themselves -- i've known plenty of opiods addicts, but you'd never know they had a problem, because they were all rich tech workers that were not stealing to satisfy their addiction * most injection users would be pill users if it wasn't so expensive -- giving them free pills would encourage a less risky route of administration and decrease sepsis cases If we still have a homeless problem after that, communal housing outside of the city with free drugs might be enough to get them to relocate to where they're not a problem and in considerably less danger. But then I remember that we live in a god-fearing christian nation, where drugs are bad and addicts should be shunned, so my plan probably won't work.
  - vineyardmike 5y ago
    > we live in a god-fearing christian nation Find a more dangerous phrase.
  - futhey 5y ago
    I don't know whether this is a brilliant solution or a dystopian nightmare. You'd re-invent the 19th century opium den, but it's public housing with free Oxy just outside the city limits, where you can choose to forego any meaningful integration into society, and (I assume) cut your life a bit shorter and escape into an unending, but more socially-acceptable, opium high.
    - anon9001 5y ago
      It sounds bad when you say it like that, but also a huge upgrade over the current situation. I think the idea would be to keep everyone safe and ideally give them pathways back to normal society, not create a permanent underclass. If a significant percentage of the population wants to take advantage of such a program, that probably means society is doing something else wrong unrelated to drug or housing policy.
standardUser 5y ago
Many homeless people suffer from physical and mental disabilities that make them incapable of living independently. They aren't volunteering to live in grotesque poverty, nor are they in-between jobs, so they don't fit into your overly-neat dichotomy. I'd argue that any serious steps towards addressing homelessness should start with a realistic assessment of the issue, not axe grinding.
- amznthrwaway 5y ago
  [dead]
- gotoeleven 5y ago
  Somehow we've collectively decided that the best way to deal with people who can't take care of themselves is to ... let them take care of themselves and also give them free needles. We clearly need to bring back insane asylums and institutionalization. Why can't we just try this again and try to make them less abusive?
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    > We clearly need to bring back insane asylums and institutionalization. Why can't we just try this again and try to make them less abusive? We can't even make the ones that exist today "less abusive"[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28857567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28857567
  - standardUser 5y ago
    I think we have to go back to some institutionalization, but only as part of the solution. We need to decriminalize drugs to remove the biggest barrier to treatment, and then fund treatment programs to remove the second biggest barrier. And we need to expand mental health services to be available to everyone regardless of insurance or ability to pay. Each one of those things is super crazy expensive (except for decriminalizing drugs, which could save a lot of wasted funds).
amznthrwaway 5y ago
I’d submit that there are extremely few people who deliberately choose mental illness or drug addiction. But I fully understand that you are vile person who wants to perpetuate a false narrative that allows you to hate people who need help. We need more people to choose to be good and helpful people, and fewer people to be useless, hate-filled, ignorant assholes like Steve.
pjs_ 5y ago
If you grow up in a shitty environment there is an increased probability that you will get into drugs. Once you start doing strong drugs all day, there is a considerably increased chance of shitting all over the place and causing havoc. I don't know if you grew up in a shitty environment or not but please consider that even if you did, the fact that you are not smoking meth in bookstore bathrooms cannot be purely a product of your own stout moral fiber, it is also due to luck, and the people that you see running riot in the city are the other side of that coin. Speaking for myself, I am a post-graduate educated rich white guy who does my recycling and helps old ladies cross the road, and I am absolutely certain that if I got deep enough into serious drugs I would be shitting and yelling with the best of them, and I fuckin pray that if I ever get into that state, that educated people would have the sophistication to view me as something other than the unforgivably evil cartoon villain that you describe.
- lapetitejort 5y ago
  Everything I've heard and read from current and former unhoused people points to the fact that mental health drops rapidly upon losing a home. Not being able to sleep a whole night without waking up and being fearful of people invading your space is sufficient. Add in food insecurity, nearby drug use, violence, etc and your brain gets fried. Just like a physical injury, this wound could take months or years to heal.
  - gilleain 5y ago
    I think of the problems that the homeless face as being like an evil roundabout. Although you enter with one of mental illness, addiction, or despair (or several, the analogy is imperfect) the roundabout mixes these up until you have them all. Ultimately, we are all responsible in some sense for our own behaviour. However the freedom of people to choose to do the right thing is often severely limited by circumstance and previous choices.
  - Hermitian909 5y ago
    I've worked with the homeless, this is absolutely the case. Being assaulted or stolen from while homeless is a matter of when not if once you've also lost your car. Sexual assault is also not uncommon. Drugs drown out the non-stop pain of existence.
crooked-v 5y ago
> shit all over the place This is some very convenient blame-shifting to avoid noticing SF's distinct shortage of 24-hour public bathrooms[1]. [1]: https://www.sfchronicle.com/local-politics/article/San-Francisco-could-get-more-24-7-public-16273076.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/local-politics/article/San-Franc...
- jaywalk 5y ago
  Talk about addressing a symptom instead of the problem.
  - RC_ITR 5y ago
    I think one of the truest empathy tests is asking someone whether they think an unhoused person WANTS to shit on the street or not.
- Apes 5y ago
  You mean 24-hour private meth dens? San Francisco built a bunch of 24-hour public restrooms in the early 2000s downtown, and today they're horrendous. The problem is cyclical: people shit on the streets because there's no public restrooms -- but there's no public restrooms because San Francisco is filled with psychopaths who have no problem dropping their pants and shitting in the middle of a street. Give them a public restroom and they'll destroy it. The people causing these problems aren't normal people who think like you and just happen to be homeless. You can't relate to them by trying to project yourself into their position. They're completely different mentally. They do not think rationally, and they do not have any empathy for others around them.
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  - Gigachad 5y ago
    Your comment is downvoted but it's something that has to be considered. Yes people shit on the streets because there are no toilets, but there are no toilets because it's extremely difficult to provide them due to abuse. It all links back to drug abuse again.
riffic 5y ago
the second group speaks to societal failure. If anyone wants to address this in a serious manner, you have to address people's humanity, needs (we're talking Maslow's Hierarchy here), and do so in a way that preserves dignity. I'd look towards FDR who came closest in the last century to addressing this with the model of the second (economic) bill of rights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights
jdavis703 5y ago
I’ve posted links before, but SF publishes a regular homeless census. It includes information about mental health, substance abuse and what locale the person became homeless in. This data clearly shows that most homeless people in SF are not choosing to engage in extreme anti-social behavior. Rather what’s happening is you’re noticing the worst cases, and extrapolating that to people such as a single mother working as security guard at night living in an RV.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  Doesn't this just reinforce the point of the parent post, that there are two types of homelessness? They are explicitly separating the worst cases from those like the working mother in the RV? Looking at the 2019 report[1], the chronically homeless better fit the negative stereotype. Sixty-three percent 63% of chronically homeless survey respondents reported alcohol or substance use. 53% reported living with a psychiatric or emotional condition, 52% with post-traumatic stress disorder, 48% with a chronic health problem, and 21% suffered from a traumatic brain injury This is from self reported survey data, so the actual numbers could be more grim (e.g. problems not acknowledged or diagnosed). https://hsh.sfgov.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/FINAL-PIT-Report-2019-San-Francisco-1.pdf https://hsh.sfgov.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/FINAL-PIT-R...
  - jdavis703 5y ago
    If you check page 28 it shows the overall rate at 42% for substance abuse, 39% for mental health and 37% for PTSD. Your summary is from only the chronically homeless. That skews the data towards the people who are by definition the hardest to help.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      Correct, This was my explicit intent. I posit that the chronically homeless are more disruptive, destructive, and harder to treat. >Doesn't this just reinforce the point of the parent post, that there are two types of homelessness? >They are explicitly separating the worst cases from those like the working mother in the RV? >Looking at the 2019 report[1], the chronically homeless better fit the negative stereotype.
umvi 5y ago
Isn't it sort of like the dead sea effect? People that are mentally stable, hard working, but down on their luck will eventually get out. People that are mentally unstable get trapped in drug cycles and stay homeless forever. So type 1 would be more temporary homelessness while type 2 more permanent homelessness.
thereisnospork 5y ago
>There are clearly two distinct things going on and they likely have two totally different solutions. If media and politicians keep communicating as if there is only one problem, despite what our ears and eyes tell us every single day, then this will continue to get worse and the outcome will likely be the same as the 'defund the police' movement-- a voter referendum that says 'enough of this nonsense'. The establishment's failure to humanely deal with the problem is making a non-humane solution inevitable. I'm not sure anyone wants that, but sooner or later a plurality will be willing and eager to look the other way.
Hokusai 5y ago
Why do Americans do drugs and have more bad behavior than other parts of the world if it's just a personal choice? Blaming the poor for being poor does not help. Other countries does not depend so much inn police but on other social services, that 'non sense' actually makes a lot of sense and works. Police cannot solved social problems. So, I agree that voters do not back up these policies. And that is why you get the problems and human suffering that you get.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Why do Americans do drugs and have more bad behavior than other parts of the world if it's just a personal choice? Do we? (Genuine question.)
  - Intermernet 5y ago
    It looks like the US is definitely up there for drug use. I'm not sure about bad behaviour, but it's a bit of an international reputation. Personally, most US citizens I've met have been, on average, equally as nice as people from anywhere else. https://ourworldindata.org/drug-use https://ourworldindata.org/drug-use
- fhood 5y ago
  I'm definitely not agreeing with the parent comment in fact it really rubs me the wrong way, and I'm probably not even entirely disagreeing with yours, but ffs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_... Sort per capita, and yes I know this is probably a flawed list whatever it's good enough. We are not talking about "America" we are primarily talking about SF or more broadly coastal California.
jjulius 5y ago
>... and those who choose this lifestyle... I don't think that "choice" is the right word for a large portion of that second category.
hellbannedguy 5y ago
Quote from Moonrise Kindgdom, "I love you, but you don't know what you are talking about." 1. By the time a person is homeless, there is a very small percentage whom ever get off the streets. 2. Yes, there are a percentage of homeless that enrages the public, but most are just trying to make it through the night. (It's housed gangs that are doing most of the shoplifting. Plus--I believe stores are using theft as an excuse to close low revenue stores. And Employees theft is never talked about.) 3. San Francisco could put porta potties where the homeless congregate. When they move, move the outhouses. 4. I've given up on a solution, other than letting them camp on federal land. Provide out houses, a place to cook, and Portable showers too. Don't just give money to a crooked 501c3 that doesn't do much. 5. Every homeless person I have known does not want a lot. They want to hold on to a bit of degrading ego they lose every day. Meaning they don't need 50 rules made up by someone who doesn't have a clue to what they are going through. Yes--a room with a lock. 6. The city could hire traveling doctors, and provide meds to those that want it. 7. The small percentage that are rehabilitatable should be given more focused help. Homeless I gave know gave a saying, "Homeless for a year, homeless for life". Meaning the brain just changes. 8. Homelessness is my biggest concern, and I have been angered over how we have dealt with it for decades. That whole Broken Window Pane is not what America should succum to. So in summary, give them a place to chit. Oh yea, I have know more than a few once fully employed Programmers who ended up on the street. Jim Fox spend twenty years climbing into Scothch Broom in order to sleep. Spent his last years wearing a Penguin Outfit begging for change. Going in and out of county jail because of jaywalking, drinking in public, sleeping in the park (If you are homeless expect a ticket.), etc. type of infractions. Jim Fox was very instrumental in the programming of Wordstar, but Semore only gave him a bit of credit. Those of us not from wealthy loving families know we are up just a few clicks from homeless.
m0llusk 5y ago
This is a really shallow take on the situation. Like any big problem there are multiple factors involved. Every time there is a crisis or economic hard times it shakes the tree and we get a new crop of homeless. Those who work with organizations trying to help have long noted this cyclic nature that mirrors business cycles. For long timers this crop of homeless are notable as being by far the oldest and sickest yet. The primary question isn't their character, but how best to manage the situation. Opining that they brought it on themselves does not get them off the street or reduce expensive calls to responders.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Opining that they brought it on themselves does not get them off the street or reduce expensive calls to responders OP's point, charitably, is that advocates to San Francisco's homeless may need to stomach a harsher response to the most-extreme cases, e.g. assaults and repeated public defecation, to avoid voters turning on the issue as a whole. Empathy is needed. But human nature is human nature, and when people feel their safety and security is threatened their empathy modulates down. That's what you're seeing in OP's comment. That's happening in San Francisco. (Oxytocin is critically involved in empathy and social behaviors. It has also been linked to toxin-elicited and socially-mediated disgust [1].) [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/gbb.12508 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/gbb.12... § 7.1
matthewmacleod 5y ago
those who choose this lifestyle Approximately nobody chooses this lifestyle, dude. You’re not going to make much progress on this issue if you start from what seems a very skewed perception of it. In reality the problem is quite large and complex, and is exacerbated by the intersection of many different factors. Boiling it down to “those who deserve a helping hand” and “those who chose this lifestyle” is worryingly reminiscent of the idea of “deserving” and “undeserving” poor. There are way more than “two distinct things going on”.

Flatcircle 5y ago

We're living through an opioid epidemic and people are reframing it as a housing problem, SMH

nverno 5y ago
It blows my mind how out of touch people have to be to reframe the problem in this manner. Better housing is always a good thing to strive for, but clearly not the driving factor for the vast majority of homeless.
- Flatcircle 5y ago
  The “build more housing” coalition has been winning this argument for at least 7 years. Are you under the impression that mayors haven’t been green lighting more housing and small housing pop ups? Do you think government officials have yet to implement your plan? They are building more affordable housing and yet the problem is getting worse. I drive my kids to school on the LA freeways and have seen countless people under freeway on ramps and in tent cities next to freeways shoot up drugs or stumble around, obviously high on drugs. The scope of the problem has become shocking recently. Huge trash encampments bedside every freeway. It’s not rocket science. Drive through LA, drive through San Fran. Even the main image on the linked article shows a guy who clearly shows the effects of drug abuse. If it were a drug crisis, what would the solutions be? At least try to implement those and see where it gets us instead of deny the scope of the drug abuse effect because it has a moral component.
  - nverno 5y ago
    I see the same things you do, I was actually agreeing with you that we are in a drug crisis more than anything else. It's not an easy situation to "solve" because at the end of the day people make there own choices for the most part, and it's especially hard to offer assistance when people are unpredictable or dangerous.
UseStrict 5y ago
Pretty much yes, can't force people to get mental health help, can't force people to quit opioids. People who think housing and access to mental health and counselling programs will solve the entire homeless crisis are incredibly short-sighted. Anecdotal for sure, but a couple of my friends have had parents who were addicts, even when they had the love and support and housing options of being with family they chose to stay on the streets, unless they decided they needed to rob a family member for some more spending money. Spreading subsidized housing out doesn't work, addicts will just hang out closer to their dealers/sources on the streets. Putting up highly concentrated housing programs just make this problem even more dense, creating a radius of exceptionally high crime. Even in the most idyllic scenario of creating perpetually well-maintained and totally free housing, many will end up choosing the streets anyways, out of convenience, mistrust, or mental health issues.
- Flatcircle 5y ago
  This x 1000
anon9001 5y ago
We should just go a step further and hand out oxy or percs to addicts for free. The pills are incredibly cheap to manufacture. A few things would happen if we started handing out opiods for free: * petty crime would decrease -- it's not the drug that causes the crime, it's trying to pay for the drug * organized crime would decrease -- moving opiods is a lucrative operation, and our addicts are bankrolling very bad people by doing business with them * users would get clean product -- opiods laced with fentanyl are a huge problem and responsible for the majority of hospitalizations and overdose deaths * more users could hold stable employment and rehabilitate themselves -- i've known plenty of opiods addicts, but you'd never know they had a problem, because they were all rich tech workers that were not stealing to satisfy their addiction * most injection users would be pill users if it wasn't so expensive -- giving them free pills would encourage a less risky route of administration and decrease sepsis cases If we still have a homeless problem after that, communal housing outside of the city with free drugs might be enough to get them to relocate to where they're not a problem and in considerably less danger. But then I remember that we live in a god-fearing christian nation, where drugs are bad and addicts should be shunned, so my plan probably won't work.
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  > we live in a god-fearing christian nation Find a more dangerous phrase.
- futhey 5y ago
  I don't know whether this is a brilliant solution or a dystopian nightmare. You'd re-invent the 19th century opium den, but it's public housing with free Oxy just outside the city limits, where you can choose to forego any meaningful integration into society, and (I assume) cut your life a bit shorter and escape into an unending, but more socially-acceptable, opium high.
  - anon9001 5y ago
    It sounds bad when you say it like that, but also a huge upgrade over the current situation. I think the idea would be to keep everyone safe and ideally give them pathways back to normal society, not create a permanent underclass. If a significant percentage of the population wants to take advantage of such a program, that probably means society is doing something else wrong unrelated to drug or housing policy.

standardUser 5y ago

Many homeless people suffer from physical and mental disabilities that make them incapable of living independently. They aren't volunteering to live in grotesque poverty, nor are they in-between jobs, so they don't fit into your overly-neat dichotomy. I'd argue that any serious steps towards addressing homelessness should start with a realistic assessment of the issue, not axe grinding.

amznthrwaway 5y ago
[dead]
gotoeleven 5y ago
Somehow we've collectively decided that the best way to deal with people who can't take care of themselves is to ... let them take care of themselves and also give them free needles. We clearly need to bring back insane asylums and institutionalization. Why can't we just try this again and try to make them less abusive?
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  > We clearly need to bring back insane asylums and institutionalization. Why can't we just try this again and try to make them less abusive? We can't even make the ones that exist today "less abusive"[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28857567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28857567
- standardUser 5y ago
  I think we have to go back to some institutionalization, but only as part of the solution. We need to decriminalize drugs to remove the biggest barrier to treatment, and then fund treatment programs to remove the second biggest barrier. And we need to expand mental health services to be available to everyone regardless of insurance or ability to pay. Each one of those things is super crazy expensive (except for decriminalizing drugs, which could save a lot of wasted funds).

amznthrwaway 5y ago

I’d submit that there are extremely few people who deliberately choose mental illness or drug addiction. But I fully understand that you are vile person who wants to perpetuate a false narrative that allows you to hate people who need help. We need more people to choose to be good and helpful people, and fewer people to be useless, hate-filled, ignorant assholes like Steve.

pjs_ 5y ago

If you grow up in a shitty environment there is an increased probability that you will get into drugs. Once you start doing strong drugs all day, there is a considerably increased chance of shitting all over the place and causing havoc. I don't know if you grew up in a shitty environment or not but please consider that even if you did, the fact that you are not smoking meth in bookstore bathrooms cannot be purely a product of your own stout moral fiber, it is also due to luck, and the people that you see running riot in the city are the other side of that coin. Speaking for myself, I am a post-graduate educated rich white guy who does my recycling and helps old ladies cross the road, and I am absolutely certain that if I got deep enough into serious drugs I would be shitting and yelling with the best of them, and I fuckin pray that if I ever get into that state, that educated people would have the sophistication to view me as something other than the unforgivably evil cartoon villain that you describe.

lapetitejort 5y ago
Everything I've heard and read from current and former unhoused people points to the fact that mental health drops rapidly upon losing a home. Not being able to sleep a whole night without waking up and being fearful of people invading your space is sufficient. Add in food insecurity, nearby drug use, violence, etc and your brain gets fried. Just like a physical injury, this wound could take months or years to heal.
- gilleain 5y ago
  I think of the problems that the homeless face as being like an evil roundabout. Although you enter with one of mental illness, addiction, or despair (or several, the analogy is imperfect) the roundabout mixes these up until you have them all. Ultimately, we are all responsible in some sense for our own behaviour. However the freedom of people to choose to do the right thing is often severely limited by circumstance and previous choices.
- Hermitian909 5y ago
  I've worked with the homeless, this is absolutely the case. Being assaulted or stolen from while homeless is a matter of when not if once you've also lost your car. Sexual assault is also not uncommon. Drugs drown out the non-stop pain of existence.

crooked-v 5y ago

> shit all over the place This is some very convenient blame-shifting to avoid noticing SF's distinct shortage of 24-hour public bathrooms[1]. [1]: https://www.sfchronicle.com/local-politics/article/San-Francisco-could-get-more-24-7-public-16273076.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/local-politics/article/San-Franc...

jaywalk 5y ago
Talk about addressing a symptom instead of the problem.
- RC_ITR 5y ago
  I think one of the truest empathy tests is asking someone whether they think an unhoused person WANTS to shit on the street or not.
Apes 5y ago
You mean 24-hour private meth dens? San Francisco built a bunch of 24-hour public restrooms in the early 2000s downtown, and today they're horrendous. The problem is cyclical: people shit on the streets because there's no public restrooms -- but there's no public restrooms because San Francisco is filled with psychopaths who have no problem dropping their pants and shitting in the middle of a street. Give them a public restroom and they'll destroy it. The people causing these problems aren't normal people who think like you and just happen to be homeless. You can't relate to them by trying to project yourself into their position. They're completely different mentally. They do not think rationally, and they do not have any empathy for others around them.
- deleted 5y ago
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- deleted 5y ago
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- Gigachad 5y ago
  Your comment is downvoted but it's something that has to be considered. Yes people shit on the streets because there are no toilets, but there are no toilets because it's extremely difficult to provide them due to abuse. It all links back to drug abuse again.

riffic 5y ago

the second group speaks to societal failure. If anyone wants to address this in a serious manner, you have to address people's humanity, needs (we're talking Maslow's Hierarchy here), and do so in a way that preserves dignity. I'd look towards FDR who came closest in the last century to addressing this with the model of the second (economic) bill of rights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights

jdavis703 5y ago

I’ve posted links before, but SF publishes a regular homeless census. It includes information about mental health, substance abuse and what locale the person became homeless in. This data clearly shows that most homeless people in SF are not choosing to engage in extreme anti-social behavior. Rather what’s happening is you’re noticing the worst cases, and extrapolating that to people such as a single mother working as security guard at night living in an RV.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
Doesn't this just reinforce the point of the parent post, that there are two types of homelessness? They are explicitly separating the worst cases from those like the working mother in the RV? Looking at the 2019 report[1], the chronically homeless better fit the negative stereotype. Sixty-three percent 63% of chronically homeless survey respondents reported alcohol or substance use. 53% reported living with a psychiatric or emotional condition, 52% with post-traumatic stress disorder, 48% with a chronic health problem, and 21% suffered from a traumatic brain injury This is from self reported survey data, so the actual numbers could be more grim (e.g. problems not acknowledged or diagnosed). https://hsh.sfgov.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/FINAL-PIT-Report-2019-San-Francisco-1.pdf https://hsh.sfgov.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/FINAL-PIT-R...
- jdavis703 5y ago
  If you check page 28 it shows the overall rate at 42% for substance abuse, 39% for mental health and 37% for PTSD. Your summary is from only the chronically homeless. That skews the data towards the people who are by definition the hardest to help.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    Correct, This was my explicit intent. I posit that the chronically homeless are more disruptive, destructive, and harder to treat. >Doesn't this just reinforce the point of the parent post, that there are two types of homelessness? >They are explicitly separating the worst cases from those like the working mother in the RV? >Looking at the 2019 report[1], the chronically homeless better fit the negative stereotype.

umvi 5y ago

Isn't it sort of like the dead sea effect? People that are mentally stable, hard working, but down on their luck will eventually get out. People that are mentally unstable get trapped in drug cycles and stay homeless forever. So type 1 would be more temporary homelessness while type 2 more permanent homelessness.

thereisnospork 5y ago

>There are clearly two distinct things going on and they likely have two totally different solutions. If media and politicians keep communicating as if there is only one problem, despite what our ears and eyes tell us every single day, then this will continue to get worse and the outcome will likely be the same as the 'defund the police' movement-- a voter referendum that says 'enough of this nonsense'. The establishment's failure to humanely deal with the problem is making a non-humane solution inevitable. I'm not sure anyone wants that, but sooner or later a plurality will be willing and eager to look the other way.

Hokusai 5y ago

Why do Americans do drugs and have more bad behavior than other parts of the world if it's just a personal choice? Blaming the poor for being poor does not help. Other countries does not depend so much inn police but on other social services, that 'non sense' actually makes a lot of sense and works. Police cannot solved social problems. So, I agree that voters do not back up these policies. And that is why you get the problems and human suffering that you get.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> Why do Americans do drugs and have more bad behavior than other parts of the world if it's just a personal choice? Do we? (Genuine question.)
- Intermernet 5y ago
  It looks like the US is definitely up there for drug use. I'm not sure about bad behaviour, but it's a bit of an international reputation. Personally, most US citizens I've met have been, on average, equally as nice as people from anywhere else. https://ourworldindata.org/drug-use https://ourworldindata.org/drug-use
fhood 5y ago
I'm definitely not agreeing with the parent comment in fact it really rubs me the wrong way, and I'm probably not even entirely disagreeing with yours, but ffs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_... Sort per capita, and yes I know this is probably a flawed list whatever it's good enough. We are not talking about "America" we are primarily talking about SF or more broadly coastal California.

jjulius 5y ago

>... and those who choose this lifestyle... I don't think that "choice" is the right word for a large portion of that second category.

hellbannedguy 5y ago

Quote from Moonrise Kindgdom, "I love you, but you don't know what you are talking about." 1. By the time a person is homeless, there is a very small percentage whom ever get off the streets. 2. Yes, there are a percentage of homeless that enrages the public, but most are just trying to make it through the night. (It's housed gangs that are doing most of the shoplifting. Plus--I believe stores are using theft as an excuse to close low revenue stores. And Employees theft is never talked about.) 3. San Francisco could put porta potties where the homeless congregate. When they move, move the outhouses. 4. I've given up on a solution, other than letting them camp on federal land. Provide out houses, a place to cook, and Portable showers too. Don't just give money to a crooked 501c3 that doesn't do much. 5. Every homeless person I have known does not want a lot. They want to hold on to a bit of degrading ego they lose every day. Meaning they don't need 50 rules made up by someone who doesn't have a clue to what they are going through. Yes--a room with a lock. 6. The city could hire traveling doctors, and provide meds to those that want it. 7. The small percentage that are rehabilitatable should be given more focused help. Homeless I gave know gave a saying, "Homeless for a year, homeless for life". Meaning the brain just changes. 8. Homelessness is my biggest concern, and I have been angered over how we have dealt with it for decades. That whole Broken Window Pane is not what America should succum to. So in summary, give them a place to chit. Oh yea, I have know more than a few once fully employed Programmers who ended up on the street. Jim Fox spend twenty years climbing into Scothch Broom in order to sleep. Spent his last years wearing a Penguin Outfit begging for change. Going in and out of county jail because of jaywalking, drinking in public, sleeping in the park (If you are homeless expect a ticket.), etc. type of infractions. Jim Fox was very instrumental in the programming of Wordstar, but Semore only gave him a bit of credit. Those of us not from wealthy loving families know we are up just a few clicks from homeless.

m0llusk 5y ago

This is a really shallow take on the situation. Like any big problem there are multiple factors involved. Every time there is a crisis or economic hard times it shakes the tree and we get a new crop of homeless. Those who work with organizations trying to help have long noted this cyclic nature that mirrors business cycles. For long timers this crop of homeless are notable as being by far the oldest and sickest yet. The primary question isn't their character, but how best to manage the situation. Opining that they brought it on themselves does not get them off the street or reduce expensive calls to responders.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> Opining that they brought it on themselves does not get them off the street or reduce expensive calls to responders OP's point, charitably, is that advocates to San Francisco's homeless may need to stomach a harsher response to the most-extreme cases, e.g. assaults and repeated public defecation, to avoid voters turning on the issue as a whole. Empathy is needed. But human nature is human nature, and when people feel their safety and security is threatened their empathy modulates down. That's what you're seeing in OP's comment. That's happening in San Francisco. (Oxytocin is critically involved in empathy and social behaviors. It has also been linked to toxin-elicited and socially-mediated disgust [1].) [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/gbb.12508 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/gbb.12... § 7.1

matthewmacleod 5y ago

those who choose this lifestyle Approximately nobody chooses this lifestyle, dude. You’re not going to make much progress on this issue if you start from what seems a very skewed perception of it. In reality the problem is quite large and complex, and is exacerbated by the intersection of many different factors. Boiling it down to “those who deserve a helping hand” and “those who chose this lifestyle” is worryingly reminiscent of the idea of “deserving” and “undeserving” poor. There are way more than “two distinct things going on”.