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Considering that some people have been revived without side effects after multiple hours of being brain-dead (e.g. famous example of women who drowned in icy wa

Considering that some people have been revived without side effects after multiple hours of being brain-dead (e.g. famous example of women who drowned in icy water), how 'dead' is 'dead', in the context of being an organ donor? I've heard it said that "you're not dead until you're warm and dead", but 6-12 hours doesn't seem like a lot of time, to make sure you're not coming back. e.g., I drown in an icy pond, and I'm found after 5 hours. I might be revived, I might not...but the heart only has an hour before it's toast.

manquer 5y ago
Clinical Death != brain dead, Clinical death has a very well defined and nearly irreversible process [1]. The longest human is known to be revived is only in the range 10-15 minutes. Brain damage is quite likely at this point. The longest for an animal is for cat - 1 Hour. Only clinically dead people are eligible for organ transplantation [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death
- generalizations 5y ago
  That's what I'm concerned about. Clinical death is apparently survivable. > Reduced body temperature, or therapeutic hypothermia, during clinical death slows the rate of injury accumulation, and extends the time period during which clinical death can be survived. The decrease in the rate of injury can be approximated by the Q10 rule, which states that the rate of biochemical reactions decreases by a factor of two for every 10 °C reduction in temperature. As a result, humans can sometimes survive periods of clinical death exceeding one hour at temperatures below 20 °C.[20] The prognosis is improved if clinical death is caused by hypothermia rather than occurring prior to it; in 1999, 29-year-old Swedish woman Anna Bågenholm spent 80 minutes trapped in ice and survived with a near full recovery from a 13.7 °C core body temperature. It is said in emergency medicine that "nobody is dead until they are warm and dead."[21] In animal studies, up to three hours of clinical death can be survived at temperatures near 0 °C.[22][23] I'd rather not be harvested too quickly, when I could have been revived without issue.
  - manquer 5y ago
    No doctor/hospital is going to harvest organs unless the person is warm and dead and all reasonable means of revival have been already tried. Also even if revied would you even want to ? While anna as an exception didn't suffer from brain damage , it is likely, and even she had long term issues with nerve function paralysis etc. Anna and other similar cases are a extreme rarity. policy shouldn't be made basis a one in a million chance, that's why we have vaccines enforced for example. You can always opt-out or not opt-in depending in on jurisdiction I am sure. There are plenty of people who opt for cryogenic storage after they die in the hope technology will evolve to revive them. That's natural step to this argument in a way , what if I could be revived some day even if not today ? Ultimately handling life and death are intensely personal choices.
    - generalizations 5y ago
      > No doctor/hospital is going to harvest organs unless the person is warm and dead Well, that's the thing. "warm and dead" is above and beyond the criteria you referenced earlier, "clinical death". I'd hope you're right, but I'm not convinced you are. It doesn't seem like it from what I've seen. And, the cooling factor in brain damage prevention is becoming more widely known these days. Anna wasn't just a fluke.
      - robbiep 5y ago
        What have you seen?
        generalizations 5y ago
        That Wikipedia article, which gives a definition of clinical death, and then talks about how clinical death is survivable. According to that article, clinical death != warm and dead.
        robbiep 5y ago
        So on the basis of a Wikipedia article and with no further research, you’re now concerned people are harvesting organs when a person could potentially survive? [0] is the Australian College of Intensive Care guidelines on organ harvesting. There are strict criteria around when a person is considered dead and for organ donation that means brain death. I’m not sure what you’re worried about, this was easily discoverable - clinical death is not the criteria that is used for the determination of organ donation eligibility [0] https://csds.qld.edu.au/sdc/Provectus/ELI/Module%202%20-%20Organ%20donation%20after%20brain%20death/files/ANZICS%20Statement%20on%20%20Death%20and%20Organ%20Donation%20Edition%203.2%20(3).pdf https://csds.qld.edu.au/sdc/Provectus/ELI/Module%202%20-%20O...
sbierwagen 5y ago
>how 'dead' is 'dead', in the context of being an organ donor? Doctors occasionally jump the gun: https://www.fox6now.com/news/father-accused-in-hours-long-standoff-at-hospital-says-he-did-it-to-save-his-brain-dead-son https://www.fox6now.com/news/father-accused-in-hours-long-st...

manquer 5y ago

Clinical Death != brain dead, Clinical death has a very well defined and nearly irreversible process [1]. The longest human is known to be revived is only in the range 10-15 minutes. Brain damage is quite likely at this point. The longest for an animal is for cat - 1 Hour. Only clinically dead people are eligible for organ transplantation [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death

generalizations 5y ago
That's what I'm concerned about. Clinical death is apparently survivable. > Reduced body temperature, or therapeutic hypothermia, during clinical death slows the rate of injury accumulation, and extends the time period during which clinical death can be survived. The decrease in the rate of injury can be approximated by the Q10 rule, which states that the rate of biochemical reactions decreases by a factor of two for every 10 °C reduction in temperature. As a result, humans can sometimes survive periods of clinical death exceeding one hour at temperatures below 20 °C.[20] The prognosis is improved if clinical death is caused by hypothermia rather than occurring prior to it; in 1999, 29-year-old Swedish woman Anna Bågenholm spent 80 minutes trapped in ice and survived with a near full recovery from a 13.7 °C core body temperature. It is said in emergency medicine that "nobody is dead until they are warm and dead."[21] In animal studies, up to three hours of clinical death can be survived at temperatures near 0 °C.[22][23] I'd rather not be harvested too quickly, when I could have been revived without issue.
- manquer 5y ago
  No doctor/hospital is going to harvest organs unless the person is warm and dead and all reasonable means of revival have been already tried. Also even if revied would you even want to ? While anna as an exception didn't suffer from brain damage , it is likely, and even she had long term issues with nerve function paralysis etc. Anna and other similar cases are a extreme rarity. policy shouldn't be made basis a one in a million chance, that's why we have vaccines enforced for example. You can always opt-out or not opt-in depending in on jurisdiction I am sure. There are plenty of people who opt for cryogenic storage after they die in the hope technology will evolve to revive them. That's natural step to this argument in a way , what if I could be revived some day even if not today ? Ultimately handling life and death are intensely personal choices.
  - generalizations 5y ago
    > No doctor/hospital is going to harvest organs unless the person is warm and dead Well, that's the thing. "warm and dead" is above and beyond the criteria you referenced earlier, "clinical death". I'd hope you're right, but I'm not convinced you are. It doesn't seem like it from what I've seen. And, the cooling factor in brain damage prevention is becoming more widely known these days. Anna wasn't just a fluke.
    - robbiep 5y ago
      What have you seen?
      - generalizations 5y ago
        That Wikipedia article, which gives a definition of clinical death, and then talks about how clinical death is survivable. According to that article, clinical death != warm and dead.
        robbiep 5y ago
        So on the basis of a Wikipedia article and with no further research, you’re now concerned people are harvesting organs when a person could potentially survive? [0] is the Australian College of Intensive Care guidelines on organ harvesting. There are strict criteria around when a person is considered dead and for organ donation that means brain death. I’m not sure what you’re worried about, this was easily discoverable - clinical death is not the criteria that is used for the determination of organ donation eligibility [0] https://csds.qld.edu.au/sdc/Provectus/ELI/Module%202%20-%20Organ%20donation%20after%20brain%20death/files/ANZICS%20Statement%20on%20%20Death%20and%20Organ%20Donation%20Edition%203.2%20(3).pdf https://csds.qld.edu.au/sdc/Provectus/ELI/Module%202%20-%20O...

sbierwagen 5y ago

>how 'dead' is 'dead', in the context of being an organ donor? Doctors occasionally jump the gun: https://www.fox6now.com/news/father-accused-in-hours-long-standoff-at-hospital-says-he-did-it-to-save-his-brain-dead-son https://www.fox6now.com/news/father-accused-in-hours-long-st...