7 ms·

"They went the extra distance to get a permission/license from the US government specially to offer full Github to developers from Iran." Wait, that's a thing

by rsync 5y ago

"They went the extra distance to get a permission/license from the US government specially to offer full Github to developers from Iran." Wait, that's a thing ? We get a signup from Iran about once every month and I always, apologetically, send a personal note saying that I wish we could provide service to them but ... You're saying rsync.net can legally provide service to Iranians with ... some paperwork ?

ya3r 5y ago
Definitely a thing. Regarding the cost, it might be more than "some paperwork".
- AriaMinaei 5y ago
  Iranian dev here. I can tell you if a company goes the extra mile to provide services to us, the reason is almost always that they just care. It's not a marketing tactic. You have to care if you go through all that trouble. And there is very little publicity to these acts. No one is going to notice it but us. They only do it out of the goodness of their hearts.
  - rvnx 5y ago
    They also went the extra-mile to block Iranian developers, they didn't have to do so much police, and probably tried to buy their redemption. For example, in theory Hackernews should block Iranians, but they will probably pretend not to be aware and won't actively chase them.
    - IlliOnato 5y ago
      And if GitHub did not block Iranian developers _before_ it obtained the exemption, it would be in violation of sanctions, which carries both criminal and pretty much unlimited financial charges. I don't know whether HN violates sanctions, but comparing to GitHub HN is very, very small fish. The chances that GitHub would swim under the radar were pretty slim. Really, "this company obeys the law, so it is evil" is lame.
    - ralph84 5y ago
      Compliance with US export controls and sanctions isn't optional. That some companies are less diligent about it than others doesn't change the compliance requirements, and people can and do regularly go to prison for willful violations.
    - mschuster91 5y ago
      > They also went the extra-mile to block Iranian developers, they didn't have to do so much police, and probably tried to buy their redemption. US sanctions, even the threat thereof, are serious business. To this day, US nationals or US tax persons are having a really hard time finding a bank in Europe that is willing to deal with them because many banks don't want any exposure to the US FATCA they can avoid. I had an ex-girlfriend who was born in Germany to US and Greek parents. Quite the shitshow with paperwork.
      - zerkten 5y ago
        I'm curious how they discover this if they are trying to stay so distant from US authorities. If you have EU citizenship which is what I assume here then presenting the Greek passport and supporting local documents isn't enough? Or, is it the case that something local like a missing local tax number, or even an accent telegraphed the situation. With the US, it feels like everything is much more uniform with the tie back to a federal social security number. The SSN is universally requested for many types of financial and insurance setups.
        jeromegv 5y ago
        Lying to your bank is typically not a good strategy when it comes to compliance. You can get asked on a form and if you lie, they have a very good case later on to close your account.
        geomark 5y ago
        In some places the family name tips them off. Like here in Thailand a Thai woman who is married to a westerner and has his last name will have to fill out a form stating whether or not they are a US person.
        jhugo 5y ago
        Every bank I've opened an account with in recent years has asked multiple specific questions about any ties to the US during the account opening process. One even asked if I'd ever had a US telephone number or mailing address.
        5y ago
    - pgeorgi 5y ago
      That works exactly as long as such an US-aligned company doesn't enter the spotlight in some sanctioned entity related trouble. Had friends working export compliance for a larger US IT company, and they once (temporarily) blocked a larger shipment to the (British) Royal Air Force because some bozo abbreviated them as "RAF" - which, obviously!, refers to the (German) Red Army Faction, a left-extremist terrorist cell that wasn't relevant for more than 10 years at that point (and wouldn't know what to do with high performance computers, anyway). Better safe than sorry, otherwise you mess up one day, come back to the HQ on the next and all that's left is a brand new parking lot.
    - toast0 5y ago
      Hacker News probably falls under the general license for personal communications, etc. Github is not really personal communications, so caution is warranted, at least a bit. Rsync.net doesn't really provide personal communications either, IMHO, and it seems reasonable for them to not do business with people in Iran unless rsync.net obtains a specific license or finds a different general license they fit into.
dharmab 5y ago
It would take some intensive lobbying: > And separately, we took our case to the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC), part of the US Treasury Department, and began a lengthy and intensive process of advocating for broad and open access to GitHub in sanctioned countries. Over the course of two years, we were able to demonstrate how developer use of GitHub advances human progress, international communication, and the enduring US foreign policy of promoting free speech and the free flow of information. We are grateful to OFAC for the engagement which has led to this great result for developers.
saurik 5y ago
There are standing "general" licenses for any product / company that is doing certain activities and "specific" licenses granted to individual companies. I believe GitHub managed to get a general exemption for anyone providing source code hosting? The general idea is that there are things that the US government wants people in Iran to be able to do as it would help their fight rather than hurt it. This page has the list of general licenses: https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/sanctions-programs-and-country-information/iran-sanctions https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/...
thrwn_frthr_awy 5y ago
They are a trillion dollar company which spends ten million dollars a year on lobbying for reasons like this.
908B64B197 5y ago
> You're saying rsync.net can legally provide service to Iranians with ... some paperwork ? A lot of it probably. Also, not sure how you can collect payment from these users. And keep in mind your software might end up being used by their regime for oppressive purpose. Keep in mind the people of Iran can end these sanctions at any time. It's a personal and societal choice.
- type_enthusiast 5y ago
  > the people of Iran can end these sanctions at any time Sorry to bite on this off-topic thing... but, _how_? Overthrowing their government? I guess that would be technically true, but "at any time" seems like a weird phrase to use for that.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    Yes. Just look at Libya during the Arab Spring. Democracy is never given, it is earned.
    - shabazahmed 5y ago
      I wouldn't say never. ex Bhutanese Democracy[1] was given by the monarchs though lot of population wanted the monarch to continue. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutanese_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutanese_democracy
    - hni 5y ago
      Never given; but taken, sometimes.
    - mschuster91 5y ago
      > Just look at Libya during the Arab Spring. Iran at least has some sort of functioning government entity (which I, to be clear, absolutely despise), Libya collapsed completely as a result of Ghaddafi's (well deserved) downfall and it will likely be a hotbed of Islamist terrorism and instability for decades to come. I don't see any nation or block of nations willing to step up and do nation rebuilding in once-beautiful Libya outside of the EU financing terrorists aka the so-called "coast guard" to torture migrants - what makes you think any kind of revolution in Iran would be assisted by anyone? The US even abandoned the Kurds ffs.

by rsync 5y ago

ya3r 5y ago

Definitely a thing. Regarding the cost, it might be more than "some paperwork".

AriaMinaei 5y ago
Iranian dev here. I can tell you if a company goes the extra mile to provide services to us, the reason is almost always that they just care. It's not a marketing tactic. You have to care if you go through all that trouble. And there is very little publicity to these acts. No one is going to notice it but us. They only do it out of the goodness of their hearts.
- rvnx 5y ago
  They also went the extra-mile to block Iranian developers, they didn't have to do so much police, and probably tried to buy their redemption. For example, in theory Hackernews should block Iranians, but they will probably pretend not to be aware and won't actively chase them.
  - IlliOnato 5y ago
    And if GitHub did not block Iranian developers _before_ it obtained the exemption, it would be in violation of sanctions, which carries both criminal and pretty much unlimited financial charges. I don't know whether HN violates sanctions, but comparing to GitHub HN is very, very small fish. The chances that GitHub would swim under the radar were pretty slim. Really, "this company obeys the law, so it is evil" is lame.
  - ralph84 5y ago
    Compliance with US export controls and sanctions isn't optional. That some companies are less diligent about it than others doesn't change the compliance requirements, and people can and do regularly go to prison for willful violations.
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    > They also went the extra-mile to block Iranian developers, they didn't have to do so much police, and probably tried to buy their redemption. US sanctions, even the threat thereof, are serious business. To this day, US nationals or US tax persons are having a really hard time finding a bank in Europe that is willing to deal with them because many banks don't want any exposure to the US FATCA they can avoid. I had an ex-girlfriend who was born in Germany to US and Greek parents. Quite the shitshow with paperwork.
    - zerkten 5y ago
      I'm curious how they discover this if they are trying to stay so distant from US authorities. If you have EU citizenship which is what I assume here then presenting the Greek passport and supporting local documents isn't enough? Or, is it the case that something local like a missing local tax number, or even an accent telegraphed the situation. With the US, it feels like everything is much more uniform with the tie back to a federal social security number. The SSN is universally requested for many types of financial and insurance setups.
      - jeromegv 5y ago
        Lying to your bank is typically not a good strategy when it comes to compliance. You can get asked on a form and if you lie, they have a very good case later on to close your account.
      - geomark 5y ago
        In some places the family name tips them off. Like here in Thailand a Thai woman who is married to a westerner and has his last name will have to fill out a form stating whether or not they are a US person.
      - jhugo 5y ago
        Every bank I've opened an account with in recent years has asked multiple specific questions about any ties to the US during the account opening process. One even asked if I'd ever had a US telephone number or mailing address.
      - 5y ago
  - pgeorgi 5y ago
    That works exactly as long as such an US-aligned company doesn't enter the spotlight in some sanctioned entity related trouble. Had friends working export compliance for a larger US IT company, and they once (temporarily) blocked a larger shipment to the (British) Royal Air Force because some bozo abbreviated them as "RAF" - which, obviously!, refers to the (German) Red Army Faction, a left-extremist terrorist cell that wasn't relevant for more than 10 years at that point (and wouldn't know what to do with high performance computers, anyway). Better safe than sorry, otherwise you mess up one day, come back to the HQ on the next and all that's left is a brand new parking lot.
  - toast0 5y ago
    Hacker News probably falls under the general license for personal communications, etc. Github is not really personal communications, so caution is warranted, at least a bit. Rsync.net doesn't really provide personal communications either, IMHO, and it seems reasonable for them to not do business with people in Iran unless rsync.net obtains a specific license or finds a different general license they fit into.

dharmab 5y ago

It would take some intensive lobbying: > And separately, we took our case to the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC), part of the US Treasury Department, and began a lengthy and intensive process of advocating for broad and open access to GitHub in sanctioned countries. Over the course of two years, we were able to demonstrate how developer use of GitHub advances human progress, international communication, and the enduring US foreign policy of promoting free speech and the free flow of information. We are grateful to OFAC for the engagement which has led to this great result for developers.

saurik 5y ago

There are standing "general" licenses for any product / company that is doing certain activities and "specific" licenses granted to individual companies. I believe GitHub managed to get a general exemption for anyone providing source code hosting? The general idea is that there are things that the US government wants people in Iran to be able to do as it would help their fight rather than hurt it. This page has the list of general licenses: https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/sanctions-programs-and-country-information/iran-sanctions https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/...

thrwn_frthr_awy 5y ago

They are a trillion dollar company which spends ten million dollars a year on lobbying for reasons like this.

908B64B197 5y ago

> You're saying rsync.net can legally provide service to Iranians with ... some paperwork ? A lot of it probably. Also, not sure how you can collect payment from these users. And keep in mind your software might end up being used by their regime for oppressive purpose. Keep in mind the people of Iran can end these sanctions at any time. It's a personal and societal choice.

type_enthusiast 5y ago
> the people of Iran can end these sanctions at any time Sorry to bite on this off-topic thing... but, _how_? Overthrowing their government? I guess that would be technically true, but "at any time" seems like a weird phrase to use for that.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  Yes. Just look at Libya during the Arab Spring. Democracy is never given, it is earned.
  - shabazahmed 5y ago
    I wouldn't say never. ex Bhutanese Democracy[1] was given by the monarchs though lot of population wanted the monarch to continue. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutanese_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutanese_democracy
  - hni 5y ago
    Never given; but taken, sometimes.
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    > Just look at Libya during the Arab Spring. Iran at least has some sort of functioning government entity (which I, to be clear, absolutely despise), Libya collapsed completely as a result of Ghaddafi's (well deserved) downfall and it will likely be a hotbed of Islamist terrorism and instability for decades to come. I don't see any nation or block of nations willing to step up and do nation rebuilding in once-beautiful Libya outside of the EU financing terrorists aka the so-called "coast guard" to torture migrants - what makes you think any kind of revolution in Iran would be assisted by anyone? The US even abandoned the Kurds ffs.