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> People like to feel puffy hair, black person or not. > ... > In Japan, people like to feel my arm hair, which is blonde and almost invisible and completely fo

by ygjb 5y ago

> People like to feel puffy hair, black person or not. > ... > In Japan, people like to feel my arm hair, which is blonde and almost invisible and completely foreign to East Asians. It's harmless. Do you extend this perspective on unwanted touching to other parts of the body without consent? People like to do things to and with other people. The thing that makes doing that a form of aggression is doing those things without consent. > Ask a white person with dreds if anyone has ever felt their hair. Please point to the cultural and historical legacy of white people being stripped of their freedom, dignity and agency when comparing the experiences of white folks to Black folks. That sets aside the entire discussion of cultural appropriation related dreadlocks which is related to, but not at the core of the point I am trying to make. > Now, you can obviously say or do something racist or mean while touching that hair, but the act of touching hair cannot itself be deemed aggressive without knowing the context. You would have to understand the social context of black people (apparently) being tired of being touched all the time in order to know that you should avoid doing this specific thing, which makes this a "faux pas". The fact that you dismiss the documented experience of Black people as "apparently" being tired of being touched all the time says pretty much everything anyone in the audience needs to know about whether you are arguing in good or bad faith. The point is further driven home by the fact that you are contrasting your own anecdotal experience with an awareness of the social context of why this is an issue.

knorker 5y ago
To address what parent post asked in the first sentence though: Is it "aggression"? Isn't that like calling "a dirty look" a "microrape"? I'm not saying I don't understand how it can be an unwelcome experience to be touched and prodded, but "microaggression" is a term out there like "silence is violence" and "words are violence" in the possibly most literal real-life version of Orwell's writings, even (in its overtness) possibly outweighing the real life society he was describing at the time.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  Given he was writing about a mix of Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany, I don't think the tendency for social justice people to assign overly provocative words to their ideas is worse than those places.
  - knorker 5y ago
    I don't think you're familiar with Orwell, and the meaning of Orwellian. Did my comment read to you like I didn't know what real life societies he was writing about? I explicitly described how they fit into my point exactly in order to make people not reply with comments like yours.
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      Maybe you are just bad at writing clearly.
      - knorker 5y ago
        I see now that my failure was in assuming an educated reader. And you're right that having an accurate model of the reader is indeed important for clear communication.
- wpietri 5y ago
  If I come up to you, violate your personal space, and start running my hands over your body, you will absolutely see it as aggressive. If you think that's not the case, go out and try doing that to the first 10 men you see on the street. Heck, try it with a couple of cops. So yes, calling more modest unwanted touching a microaggression is perfectly appropriate.
  - wpietri 5y ago
    One other way to look at this it through the broader system. Since America's founding, black people have been treated as inferior. How have they been kept in what white people saw as their place? Some of it has been open violence, of course, with lynching and race massacres being the most obvious. There was also plenty of more quiet violence, the unmarked graves and the vicious but survivable beatings. But that's relatively rare because it is backed up by a host of more subtle things. Things that might lead to violence, especially if an uppity person persisted in acting like an equal. Threats, of course, but also menacing looks, harsh words, bad attitudes, etc. This is summed up in ADL's pyramid of hate. The top layer is built on the layers beneath: https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/pyramid-of-hate.pdf https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/pyramid-of... So we talk about microaggressions because the societal system of white supremacy uses both macroaggressions and migroaggresions as a continuum of actions that maintain the racist status quo, continuously informing both black and white people of their assigned place.
  - knorker 5y ago
    "oooh, nice hair, can I touch it?" is also counted as "microaggression". Just the words. A misunderstood social signal (e.g. a raised eyebrow) can be called a micro-aggression. I don't think you actually know what "microaggression" means. You should educate yourself on its definition. The main source of microaggressions are in fact words, and words that while rooted in ignorance (and people, like you, should educate themselves), are not in fact in any shape or form "aggressive" or even have any form of negativity associated with them. Take the "you're the whitest black person I know", from the "I, Too, Am Harvard". Well, that's sure a stupid thing to say. But is it "aggression"? Obviously not.
- ygjb 5y ago
  First, touching someone without permission isn't a micro-aggression. Depending on the jurisdiction, the location of the unwanted touching, and the age or power disparity between the two, it can range from harassment to assault. The fact that this discussion is even happening in the context of Black people and their hair is frustrating because the implicit bias is that somehow individual curiosity overrides another persons expectation of freedom from interference or right to not be fondled. If we were talking about a casual grope of a woman's breast because people are naturally curious, I would expect that most people would be moderately outraged. Also, while a "dirty look" is subjective, "leering" is a form of sexual harassment in many jurisdictions. While I appreciate that your perspective that microagressions, silence is violence, and words are violence are Orwellian, your perspective also reveals a pretty clear ignorance of the nuance and impact that these slogans capture. I don't know if it's an ignorance that stems from a lack of knowledge and experience, or a more insidious and willful ignorance that stems from the type of thinking that allows for or encourages "marketplaces of ideas" that tolerate and debate some of the most awful and toxic values, but it doesn't really matter. Up in the thread I stated, and I stand by it, workplace inclusiveness and diversity training is intended to reach those who can be taught, and inform those who can't of the consequences of failing to at least act in a baseline socially acceptable fashion for the duration of the work day. It would be a better world if more people cared about the impact of what they do and say, but in the absence of that, most of us will settle for people who can at least act like they care.
  - knorker 5y ago
    > First, touching someone without permission isn't a micro-aggression. Now you're changing the subject. You and I both know that "oooh, nice hair, can I touch it?" is also counted as "microaggression". A misunderstood social signal (e.g. a raised eyebrow) can be called a micro-aggression. Most migroaggressions involve nothing physical, nor any ill intent. That doesn't make them right. They can still be hurtful. E.g. "you're the whitest black person I know" sure is a stupid thing to say. "Hey, nice hair" is also a thing banned in these trainings. Because the receiver can infer that their hair is unique, exotic, and that they are different and maybe don't belong here. So "hey, nice haircut" is banned from workplaces under all circumstanses. Ok, fine. Nobody needs to comment on appearance in the workplace, why would they? But it's not "aggression". It's nothing like it. And this is what "microaggression" is. This is what's being stamped out. > individual curiosity overrides another persons expectation of freedom from interference or right to not be fondled It does not, I agree. > If we were talking about a casual grope of a woman's breast because people are naturally curious, Jesus christ you're going way overboard in changing the subject. I got it already: You want to change the subject. > Also, while a "dirty look" is subjective, "leering" is a form of sexual harassment in many jurisdictions. But is it a "microrape"? The difference here is a controlling use of language. If someone walks down the street and get checked out by a passer by, they were not "almost raped". To say that they were is insulting to rape victims, a perfectly normal person who just looked at their surroundings, and language itself. > workplace inclusiveness and diversity training is intended to reach those who can be taught, and inform those who can't of the consequences of failing to at least act in a baseline socially acceptable fashion for the duration of the work day. Yup. But I think it's failing at it. There's plenty of bad behavior to stamp out. But it's also being replaced by other bad behavior. Like telling people that being white means that you as an individual have these attributes, and shutting down a colleague saying "you are a man, and therefore can't be a part of this conversation or decision". I don't know if you bought into the "intent doesn't matter" crowd, but if you have, then the fact that inclusivity and diversity training has good intentions doesn't matter. > It would be a better world if more people cared about the impact of what they do and say Diversity & inclusiveness activists at companies don't have a monopoly on these values. And I wish they would stop pretending that they did. Because they sure don't actually live their stated gospel.
garfieldnate 5y ago
I wrote more thoughts above in response to wpietri, but I just wanted to clarify that my usage of the word "apparently" was meant with the opposite intention: someone on the internet said something about black people, and I can't claim it through personal experience to be the truth. From wpietri's reply above, I believe they are also basing their thoughts on hearsay, which makes it double hearsay.

by ygjb 5y ago

knorker 5y ago

To address what parent post asked in the first sentence though: Is it "aggression"? Isn't that like calling "a dirty look" a "microrape"? I'm not saying I don't understand how it can be an unwelcome experience to be touched and prodded, but "microaggression" is a term out there like "silence is violence" and "words are violence" in the possibly most literal real-life version of Orwell's writings, even (in its overtness) possibly outweighing the real life society he was describing at the time.

beaconstudios 5y ago
Given he was writing about a mix of Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany, I don't think the tendency for social justice people to assign overly provocative words to their ideas is worse than those places.
- knorker 5y ago
  I don't think you're familiar with Orwell, and the meaning of Orwellian. Did my comment read to you like I didn't know what real life societies he was writing about? I explicitly described how they fit into my point exactly in order to make people not reply with comments like yours.
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    Maybe you are just bad at writing clearly.
    - knorker 5y ago
      I see now that my failure was in assuming an educated reader. And you're right that having an accurate model of the reader is indeed important for clear communication.
wpietri 5y ago
If I come up to you, violate your personal space, and start running my hands over your body, you will absolutely see it as aggressive. If you think that's not the case, go out and try doing that to the first 10 men you see on the street. Heck, try it with a couple of cops. So yes, calling more modest unwanted touching a microaggression is perfectly appropriate.
- wpietri 5y ago
  One other way to look at this it through the broader system. Since America's founding, black people have been treated as inferior. How have they been kept in what white people saw as their place? Some of it has been open violence, of course, with lynching and race massacres being the most obvious. There was also plenty of more quiet violence, the unmarked graves and the vicious but survivable beatings. But that's relatively rare because it is backed up by a host of more subtle things. Things that might lead to violence, especially if an uppity person persisted in acting like an equal. Threats, of course, but also menacing looks, harsh words, bad attitudes, etc. This is summed up in ADL's pyramid of hate. The top layer is built on the layers beneath: https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/pyramid-of-hate.pdf https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/pyramid-of... So we talk about microaggressions because the societal system of white supremacy uses both macroaggressions and migroaggresions as a continuum of actions that maintain the racist status quo, continuously informing both black and white people of their assigned place.
- knorker 5y ago
  "oooh, nice hair, can I touch it?" is also counted as "microaggression". Just the words. A misunderstood social signal (e.g. a raised eyebrow) can be called a micro-aggression. I don't think you actually know what "microaggression" means. You should educate yourself on its definition. The main source of microaggressions are in fact words, and words that while rooted in ignorance (and people, like you, should educate themselves), are not in fact in any shape or form "aggressive" or even have any form of negativity associated with them. Take the "you're the whitest black person I know", from the "I, Too, Am Harvard". Well, that's sure a stupid thing to say. But is it "aggression"? Obviously not.
ygjb 5y ago
First, touching someone without permission isn't a micro-aggression. Depending on the jurisdiction, the location of the unwanted touching, and the age or power disparity between the two, it can range from harassment to assault. The fact that this discussion is even happening in the context of Black people and their hair is frustrating because the implicit bias is that somehow individual curiosity overrides another persons expectation of freedom from interference or right to not be fondled. If we were talking about a casual grope of a woman's breast because people are naturally curious, I would expect that most people would be moderately outraged. Also, while a "dirty look" is subjective, "leering" is a form of sexual harassment in many jurisdictions. While I appreciate that your perspective that microagressions, silence is violence, and words are violence are Orwellian, your perspective also reveals a pretty clear ignorance of the nuance and impact that these slogans capture. I don't know if it's an ignorance that stems from a lack of knowledge and experience, or a more insidious and willful ignorance that stems from the type of thinking that allows for or encourages "marketplaces of ideas" that tolerate and debate some of the most awful and toxic values, but it doesn't really matter. Up in the thread I stated, and I stand by it, workplace inclusiveness and diversity training is intended to reach those who can be taught, and inform those who can't of the consequences of failing to at least act in a baseline socially acceptable fashion for the duration of the work day. It would be a better world if more people cared about the impact of what they do and say, but in the absence of that, most of us will settle for people who can at least act like they care.
- knorker 5y ago
  > First, touching someone without permission isn't a micro-aggression. Now you're changing the subject. You and I both know that "oooh, nice hair, can I touch it?" is also counted as "microaggression". A misunderstood social signal (e.g. a raised eyebrow) can be called a micro-aggression. Most migroaggressions involve nothing physical, nor any ill intent. That doesn't make them right. They can still be hurtful. E.g. "you're the whitest black person I know" sure is a stupid thing to say. "Hey, nice hair" is also a thing banned in these trainings. Because the receiver can infer that their hair is unique, exotic, and that they are different and maybe don't belong here. So "hey, nice haircut" is banned from workplaces under all circumstanses. Ok, fine. Nobody needs to comment on appearance in the workplace, why would they? But it's not "aggression". It's nothing like it. And this is what "microaggression" is. This is what's being stamped out. > individual curiosity overrides another persons expectation of freedom from interference or right to not be fondled It does not, I agree. > If we were talking about a casual grope of a woman's breast because people are naturally curious, Jesus christ you're going way overboard in changing the subject. I got it already: You want to change the subject. > Also, while a "dirty look" is subjective, "leering" is a form of sexual harassment in many jurisdictions. But is it a "microrape"? The difference here is a controlling use of language. If someone walks down the street and get checked out by a passer by, they were not "almost raped". To say that they were is insulting to rape victims, a perfectly normal person who just looked at their surroundings, and language itself. > workplace inclusiveness and diversity training is intended to reach those who can be taught, and inform those who can't of the consequences of failing to at least act in a baseline socially acceptable fashion for the duration of the work day. Yup. But I think it's failing at it. There's plenty of bad behavior to stamp out. But it's also being replaced by other bad behavior. Like telling people that being white means that you as an individual have these attributes, and shutting down a colleague saying "you are a man, and therefore can't be a part of this conversation or decision". I don't know if you bought into the "intent doesn't matter" crowd, but if you have, then the fact that inclusivity and diversity training has good intentions doesn't matter. > It would be a better world if more people cared about the impact of what they do and say Diversity & inclusiveness activists at companies don't have a monopoly on these values. And I wish they would stop pretending that they did. Because they sure don't actually live their stated gospel.

garfieldnate 5y ago

I wrote more thoughts above in response to wpietri, but I just wanted to clarify that my usage of the word "apparently" was meant with the opposite intention: someone on the internet said something about black people, and I can't claim it through personal experience to be the truth. From wpietri's reply above, I believe they are also basing their thoughts on hearsay, which makes it double hearsay.