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The programmers who i've read about getting hit with penalties as a consequence of working with companies such as NSO or with governments such as the UAE seem

The programmers who i've read about getting hit with penalties as a consequence of working with companies such as NSO or with governments such as the UAE seem to be exposing a significant gap in the US' treatment of their most prized minds. The NSA and other government agencies seem to not be attractive from the point of view of a great place to work and the money to be made in the private sector in the US alone is thin. . . economic forces dictate that supply will meet demand especially when the demand is rich middle eastern wealth. There is no obvious "red team" or similar career for these people in the US to help defend the nations systems for a fee. All government contracts for cybersecurity go out in tenders that prioritize entities that can navigate the complex logistics of filing a response with the Government and working their way. That's the biggest concern for me seeing this pattern emerge. On the specific entity here, the NSO group being blacklisted, that will change little. There is a systemic risk of us continuing to lose great talent to more attractive ventures.

shmatt 5y ago
These are the same people (ex 8200 - Israeli NSA) who sell security startups for 9 figures within a year of opening them. Then the next year open another one The same people are playing both sides It's not like the government doesn't purchase private sector cyber security. It's just 1 group of very smart people doing all the work for both sides
- DisjointedHunt 5y ago
  I'm not speaking about the founders. I should have been more specific. The talent in the NSA that leaves and ends up working for the UAE, as an example[1] [1]https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/47/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/47/
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - gad0lin 5y ago
    Episode 100 of darknetdiaries is devoted to NSO and talks about usage of Pegasus in Mexico and other countries https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/100/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/100/ I think there might have been pressure on NSO as part of trial of Google|Fb.. against them. https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/22/22194930/microsoft-google-cisco-vmware-internet-association-amicus-brief-nso-group-spyware-whatsapp-facebook https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/22/22194930/microsoft-googl...
    - DisjointedHunt 5y ago
      Okay, let me repeat. I’m not speaking about NSOs founders or the org. The concern I’m highlighting is that we’re not treating our most brilliant minds with the care that keeps them happy here. That is the link to episode 47 of dark net diaries. I guess Hacker News has devolved into a place of talking over each other and downvotes.
2pEXgD0fZ5cF 5y ago
I wouldn't say that being the most morally bankrupt (actively working on the attack on journalists, critics and minorities) automatically qualifies someone as a "most prized mind", it's not like they are developing all of those zero days inhouse, they buy them for the most part. It seems to me like you are overestimating the skills of people that just don't have any moral barrier while underestimating the skills of many proper security researchers. Companies like NSO are most of the time able to do what they do because they shake the right hands and get the right support (or the right people to look the other way), not because they have some special people that you can't find anywhere else.
- DisjointedHunt 5y ago
  I'd recommend listening to episode 47 of the Darknet diaries and see if you still hold those beliefs that these people are indeed morally bankrupt https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/47/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/47/ The thing with this line of work is that one mans ethics becomes another mans sin. The tl;dr of that episode is that some of these people were led on to believe they were actually targeting criminals and terrorists. It later became clear that was not the case. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that. It would surprise you that even the most noble of pursuits in engineering have very cruel applications in war.
dpratt 5y ago
I'm not particularly bothered by losing access to the kind of 'prized mind' who sees no problem with creating tools to enforce a totalitarian state. I find it logically untenable that a 'prized mind' would not be completely aware of the types of things they were building and the intended usage thereof. If they aren't smart enough to figure it out, then we're not losing access to some particular genius. If they are smart enough to figure it out and continue to contribute to the work they have become complicit at best, and likely are an amoral psychopath.

shmatt 5y ago

These are the same people (ex 8200 - Israeli NSA) who sell security startups for 9 figures within a year of opening them. Then the next year open another one The same people are playing both sides It's not like the government doesn't purchase private sector cyber security. It's just 1 group of very smart people doing all the work for both sides

DisjointedHunt 5y ago
I'm not speaking about the founders. I should have been more specific. The talent in the NSA that leaves and ends up working for the UAE, as an example[1] [1]https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/47/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/47/
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- gad0lin 5y ago
  Episode 100 of darknetdiaries is devoted to NSO and talks about usage of Pegasus in Mexico and other countries https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/100/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/100/ I think there might have been pressure on NSO as part of trial of Google|Fb.. against them. https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/22/22194930/microsoft-google-cisco-vmware-internet-association-amicus-brief-nso-group-spyware-whatsapp-facebook https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/22/22194930/microsoft-googl...
  - DisjointedHunt 5y ago
    Okay, let me repeat. I’m not speaking about NSOs founders or the org. The concern I’m highlighting is that we’re not treating our most brilliant minds with the care that keeps them happy here. That is the link to episode 47 of dark net diaries. I guess Hacker News has devolved into a place of talking over each other and downvotes.

2pEXgD0fZ5cF 5y ago

I wouldn't say that being the most morally bankrupt (actively working on the attack on journalists, critics and minorities) automatically qualifies someone as a "most prized mind", it's not like they are developing all of those zero days inhouse, they buy them for the most part. It seems to me like you are overestimating the skills of people that just don't have any moral barrier while underestimating the skills of many proper security researchers. Companies like NSO are most of the time able to do what they do because they shake the right hands and get the right support (or the right people to look the other way), not because they have some special people that you can't find anywhere else.

DisjointedHunt 5y ago
I'd recommend listening to episode 47 of the Darknet diaries and see if you still hold those beliefs that these people are indeed morally bankrupt https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/47/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/47/ The thing with this line of work is that one mans ethics becomes another mans sin. The tl;dr of that episode is that some of these people were led on to believe they were actually targeting criminals and terrorists. It later became clear that was not the case. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that. It would surprise you that even the most noble of pursuits in engineering have very cruel applications in war.

dpratt 5y ago

I'm not particularly bothered by losing access to the kind of 'prized mind' who sees no problem with creating tools to enforce a totalitarian state. I find it logically untenable that a 'prized mind' would not be completely aware of the types of things they were building and the intended usage thereof. If they aren't smart enough to figure it out, then we're not losing access to some particular genius. If they are smart enough to figure it out and continue to contribute to the work they have become complicit at best, and likely are an amoral psychopath.