5 ms·

Maybe it would make more sense to you, but not to most people I think. Electricity has much better uses than cryptocurrency.

Tenoke 5y ago
Of course it does. It also has better uses than say gaming, so if that is the logic maybe that should be banned, too.
- p49k 5y ago
  Gaming isn’t a major contributing cause to a country’s energy crisis.
- FriedrichN 5y ago
  There is a difference between the two. That's like comparing the fuel use or exhaust of a Fiat 500 to that of a cargo ship.
  - Tenoke 5y ago
    Under your analogy we shouldn't regulate car exhausts before we regulate cargo ships. At any rate, article says 250k mining devices there so the electricity usage is likely more from mining but not orders of magnitude more, and even if it was it would suggest they are not banned because of how useful it is (arguably gaming is even less useful) but because of size. But sure compare to gaming + TVs then.
    - FriedrichN 5y ago
      Analogies are meant to be used once. You shouldn't take them and use them for another purpose.
- oblio 5y ago
  Does it have better uses than a regular Kazakh citizen being able to use the light bulb in their apartment? Or their fridge?
baybal2 5y ago
All big scale BTC mines buy at industrial prices. You cannot run a mine bigger than what your wiring can support in your apartment. None of them is using the subsidised residential rate.
- yorwba 5y ago
  Are industrial prices not subsidized?
  - baybal2 5y ago
    Certainly not, industrial use subsidises the residential. And businesses have to pay for their grid connection to the premises.
- dpierce9 5y ago
  Residential rates are not typically subsidized, they are regulated and billed at cost plus. The only thing that can be called a subsidy is a delay in raising costs. When local utilities are required to supply at a fixed price and that fixed price is less then cost + fixed profit margin, then they are losing money. The remedy for this is to ask their regulators to change the fixed price to account for both the higher expected base rate and their losses during prior periods. The utility commissions which regulate them almost always grant such requests. In extreme cases, CA power crisis, this can bankrupt utilities but in simple shifts of the demand curve most utilities have great credit ratings and can borrow to cover opex during the shortfalls.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    It is https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Kazakhstan/electricity_prices/ https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Kazakhstan/electricity_pr...
    - dpierce9 5y ago
      There being a price difference between business and residential does not imply a subsidy. It can simply cost more to distribute electricity to businesses, the time power is supplied may be different, and the nature of what is supplied may also be different. Commonly (in the US) businesses have larger supplies, three phase power, and lines and transformers may be buried or harder to access. Midday electricity is also more expensive typically and businesses use more electricity midday (which is why it is more expensive). Further, businesses may be charged real time rates while residential rates lag spikes in price or are averaged over time. That said, Kazakhstan may subsidize their power, I don’t know.
golergka 5y ago
If only we had an open, decentralised mechanism to figure out what's a better use of a limited resource is. Oh wait. That's exactly what "cost" is.
- Taywee 5y ago
  Yeah, "cost" is one of the fundamental terms of economics. So is "externality".
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    What's the externality of using electricity?
    - Taywee 5y ago
      Pollution (most electricity production is still coal-based), raising electricity prices for everybody else, contributing to an ongoing energy crisis (electricity is going to start being rationed in Kazakhstan). Electricity is a finite resource.
    - FartyMcFarter 5y ago
      Depends on the situation. If there's a shortage (or near-shortage) of supply, the externality could be causing a partial or total blackout.
- depaya 5y ago
  Put down your Ayn Rand novel for a second and gain some empathy. A few rich crypto miners pricing many people out of electricity is inhumane.
- oblio 5y ago
  Yup, I'm sure that every time we've let the market do its thing, nobody suffered. I don't really want to get into too much of what's very gross territory, but let's say that a long time ago a certain nation controlling another nation decided that the food from said controlled nation was economically most useful being sold somewhere else. The locals couldn't afford the "cost". I'll let you put 2 and 2 together for the rest.
hanniabu 5y ago
Easy, just require an pricy mining permit that can be used to build renewable infrastructure.

Tenoke 5y ago

Of course it does. It also has better uses than say gaming, so if that is the logic maybe that should be banned, too.

p49k 5y ago
Gaming isn’t a major contributing cause to a country’s energy crisis.
FriedrichN 5y ago
There is a difference between the two. That's like comparing the fuel use or exhaust of a Fiat 500 to that of a cargo ship.
- Tenoke 5y ago
  Under your analogy we shouldn't regulate car exhausts before we regulate cargo ships. At any rate, article says 250k mining devices there so the electricity usage is likely more from mining but not orders of magnitude more, and even if it was it would suggest they are not banned because of how useful it is (arguably gaming is even less useful) but because of size. But sure compare to gaming + TVs then.
  - FriedrichN 5y ago
    Analogies are meant to be used once. You shouldn't take them and use them for another purpose.
oblio 5y ago
Does it have better uses than a regular Kazakh citizen being able to use the light bulb in their apartment? Or their fridge?

baybal2 5y ago

All big scale BTC mines buy at industrial prices. You cannot run a mine bigger than what your wiring can support in your apartment. None of them is using the subsidised residential rate.

yorwba 5y ago
Are industrial prices not subsidized?
- baybal2 5y ago
  Certainly not, industrial use subsidises the residential. And businesses have to pay for their grid connection to the premises.
dpierce9 5y ago
Residential rates are not typically subsidized, they are regulated and billed at cost plus. The only thing that can be called a subsidy is a delay in raising costs. When local utilities are required to supply at a fixed price and that fixed price is less then cost + fixed profit margin, then they are losing money. The remedy for this is to ask their regulators to change the fixed price to account for both the higher expected base rate and their losses during prior periods. The utility commissions which regulate them almost always grant such requests. In extreme cases, CA power crisis, this can bankrupt utilities but in simple shifts of the demand curve most utilities have great credit ratings and can borrow to cover opex during the shortfalls.
- baybal2 5y ago
  It is https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Kazakhstan/electricity_prices/ https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Kazakhstan/electricity_pr...
  - dpierce9 5y ago
    There being a price difference between business and residential does not imply a subsidy. It can simply cost more to distribute electricity to businesses, the time power is supplied may be different, and the nature of what is supplied may also be different. Commonly (in the US) businesses have larger supplies, three phase power, and lines and transformers may be buried or harder to access. Midday electricity is also more expensive typically and businesses use more electricity midday (which is why it is more expensive). Further, businesses may be charged real time rates while residential rates lag spikes in price or are averaged over time. That said, Kazakhstan may subsidize their power, I don’t know.

golergka 5y ago

If only we had an open, decentralised mechanism to figure out what's a better use of a limited resource is. Oh wait. That's exactly what "cost" is.

Taywee 5y ago
Yeah, "cost" is one of the fundamental terms of economics. So is "externality".
- josephcsible 5y ago
  What's the externality of using electricity?
  - Taywee 5y ago
    Pollution (most electricity production is still coal-based), raising electricity prices for everybody else, contributing to an ongoing energy crisis (electricity is going to start being rationed in Kazakhstan). Electricity is a finite resource.
  - FartyMcFarter 5y ago
    Depends on the situation. If there's a shortage (or near-shortage) of supply, the externality could be causing a partial or total blackout.
depaya 5y ago
Put down your Ayn Rand novel for a second and gain some empathy. A few rich crypto miners pricing many people out of electricity is inhumane.
oblio 5y ago
Yup, I'm sure that every time we've let the market do its thing, nobody suffered. I don't really want to get into too much of what's very gross territory, but let's say that a long time ago a certain nation controlling another nation decided that the food from said controlled nation was economically most useful being sold somewhere else. The locals couldn't afford the "cost". I'll let you put 2 and 2 together for the rest.

hanniabu 5y ago

Easy, just require an pricy mining permit that can be used to build renewable infrastructure.