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Fifty Shades of Gandalf the Grey

BerislavLopac 5y ago
Another candidate that fits the arguments in the article would be Aragorn, who (as Thorongil) served in Rohan and Gondor around the time Faramir was born. However, even if we ignore Tolkien's general conservativism, it is unlikely that Aragorn would ever cheat on Arwen; they got "engaged" just three years before Faramir was born.
jleyank 5y ago
Interesting, although it might require Gandalf as the secret father of Aragorn as well. Come to think of it, his father died young, which was convenient. Aragorn might just have been a changeling, another Maiar snuck in from the West. I prefer to think that the path of the ring into the heart was via despair. Those with a strong enough sense of purpose (Sam, Aragorn), or a fundamental strength of character (Faramir), or otherworldly indifference (Bombadil) could see it as a false promise. Although Faramir might have wavered if re-exposed before being doused with lighter fluid. Maybe Eru just decided “well, letting the dogs run” didn’t turn out too well and directed Manwe to put the multi-millennium plan into action this time. Maybe the Eagles were more, umm, interesting then we thought? 50 shades of Manwe?
- curryst 5y ago
  > Interesting, although it might require Gandalf as the secret father of Aragorn as well. It doesn't. Aragorn already descends from a Maia. The whole Numenorian royal blood line descends from Thingol and Melian; Melian is a Maia. > I prefer to think that the path of the ring into the heart was via despair. I don't really think this plays out. Aragorn is definitely descended from Maia, Faramir might be, and Tom Bombadil is a powerful being though we don't know how powerful (although certainly at least in the realm of a Maia). I think the real story is Sam's devotion to his friend (or lover, if you subscribe to that theory). That in this clash between immortal, supernatural beings with incredible power, what changes the world isn't a mega-being appearing to vaporize all the evil. It's Sam's unwavering devotion to Frodo. Everyone else is tempted by the ring, but Sam alone is unphased, blinded by his desire to simply go home with his friend/lover and live a simple life. I like the poetic irony of it. What saves the world is one man's indifference to saving the world.
gumby 5y ago
This first point is a stretch: > It simply is not credible that a mere mortal Man, however virtuous, could simply ignore the allure of this talisman [the Ring], which Faramir does with laughable ease. That is interesting but doesn’t justify the argument. Early in The Fellowship of the Ring, Frodo asks Gandalf to take the ring and Gandalf says he himself would not be able to resist temptation. I think this point was important enough that it might have made it into the film version. Also there’s a bit of implication in this argument that wizards are some sort of genetically differentiated group (likes elves, humans, hobbits, etc) while I have always assumed that wizards are just humans (or others I suppose) who are scholars and who get their advantages (long life, spell casting etc) through training. So that would not contradict the Faramir argument if Gandalf kept coming by to teach him, but certainly makes the argument about the death of Findlay’s absurd.
- rizzaxc 5y ago
  Gandalf isn't a wizard. He is a "Maiar" - a God. So yeah he is "genetically" different than humans
  - fknorangesite 5y ago
    > Gandalf isn't a wizard. Yes he is. > He is a "Maiar" Yes, he is. Just like the other four wizards.
- andrewl 5y ago
  Regarding this: Also there’s a bit of implication in this argument that wizards are some sort of genetically differentiated group (likes elves, humans, hobbits, etc) while I have always assumed that wizards are just humans (or others I suppose) who are scholars and who get their advantages (long life, spell casting etc) through training. Wizards are definitely in a different group than elves or men. They are a class of being called maiar (singular maia). Sauron and the balrogs are also maiar. They’re sort of junior gods (to oversimplify) in Tolkien’s universe. The great gods are the Valar (singular vala), the demiurgic beings of Middle Earth. The vala Aulë was a smith who crafted, among other things, the mountains and other lands of Middle Earth. Sauron and Saruman were both followers of Aulë. And they were both good at making things (Sauron especially). If I remember correctly, Sauron raised the mountains around Mordor. The most powerful vala was Melkor, later known as Morgoth, who fell into evil. He was defeated and removed from the world at the end of the First Age. The greatest of the maiar whom he seduced into his service was Sauron. Some of the maiar who followed him took the form of monstrous creatures who wielded whips of fire. They were the balrogs. In Moria Legolas recognized the ancient creature as “A balrog of Morgoth.”

Another candidate that fits the arguments in the article would be Aragorn, who (as Thorongil) served in Rohan and Gondor around the time Faramir was born. However, even if we ignore Tolkien's general conservativism, it is unlikely that Aragorn would ever cheat on Arwen; they got "engaged" just three years before Faramir was born.

jleyank 5y ago

Interesting, although it might require Gandalf as the secret father of Aragorn as well. Come to think of it, his father died young, which was convenient. Aragorn might just have been a changeling, another Maiar snuck in from the West. I prefer to think that the path of the ring into the heart was via despair. Those with a strong enough sense of purpose (Sam, Aragorn), or a fundamental strength of character (Faramir), or otherworldly indifference (Bombadil) could see it as a false promise. Although Faramir might have wavered if re-exposed before being doused with lighter fluid. Maybe Eru just decided “well, letting the dogs run” didn’t turn out too well and directed Manwe to put the multi-millennium plan into action this time. Maybe the Eagles were more, umm, interesting then we thought? 50 shades of Manwe?

curryst 5y ago
> Interesting, although it might require Gandalf as the secret father of Aragorn as well. It doesn't. Aragorn already descends from a Maia. The whole Numenorian royal blood line descends from Thingol and Melian; Melian is a Maia. > I prefer to think that the path of the ring into the heart was via despair. I don't really think this plays out. Aragorn is definitely descended from Maia, Faramir might be, and Tom Bombadil is a powerful being though we don't know how powerful (although certainly at least in the realm of a Maia). I think the real story is Sam's devotion to his friend (or lover, if you subscribe to that theory). That in this clash between immortal, supernatural beings with incredible power, what changes the world isn't a mega-being appearing to vaporize all the evil. It's Sam's unwavering devotion to Frodo. Everyone else is tempted by the ring, but Sam alone is unphased, blinded by his desire to simply go home with his friend/lover and live a simple life. I like the poetic irony of it. What saves the world is one man's indifference to saving the world.

gumby 5y ago

This first point is a stretch: > It simply is not credible that a mere mortal Man, however virtuous, could simply ignore the allure of this talisman [the Ring], which Faramir does with laughable ease. That is interesting but doesn’t justify the argument. Early in The Fellowship of the Ring, Frodo asks Gandalf to take the ring and Gandalf says he himself would not be able to resist temptation. I think this point was important enough that it might have made it into the film version. Also there’s a bit of implication in this argument that wizards are some sort of genetically differentiated group (likes elves, humans, hobbits, etc) while I have always assumed that wizards are just humans (or others I suppose) who are scholars and who get their advantages (long life, spell casting etc) through training. So that would not contradict the Faramir argument if Gandalf kept coming by to teach him, but certainly makes the argument about the death of Findlay’s absurd.

rizzaxc 5y ago
Gandalf isn't a wizard. He is a "Maiar" - a God. So yeah he is "genetically" different than humans
- fknorangesite 5y ago
  > Gandalf isn't a wizard. Yes he is. > He is a "Maiar" Yes, he is. Just like the other four wizards.
andrewl 5y ago
Regarding this: Also there’s a bit of implication in this argument that wizards are some sort of genetically differentiated group (likes elves, humans, hobbits, etc) while I have always assumed that wizards are just humans (or others I suppose) who are scholars and who get their advantages (long life, spell casting etc) through training. Wizards are definitely in a different group than elves or men. They are a class of being called maiar (singular maia). Sauron and the balrogs are also maiar. They’re sort of junior gods (to oversimplify) in Tolkien’s universe. The great gods are the Valar (singular vala), the demiurgic beings of Middle Earth. The vala Aulë was a smith who crafted, among other things, the mountains and other lands of Middle Earth. Sauron and Saruman were both followers of Aulë. And they were both good at making things (Sauron especially). If I remember correctly, Sauron raised the mountains around Mordor. The most powerful vala was Melkor, later known as Morgoth, who fell into evil. He was defeated and removed from the world at the end of the First Age. The greatest of the maiar whom he seduced into his service was Sauron. Some of the maiar who followed him took the form of monstrous creatures who wielded whips of fire. They were the balrogs. In Moria Legolas recognized the ancient creature as “A balrog of Morgoth.”