7 ms·

Honestly since all my posts have been downvoted thats not really an incentive for me to continue further even though I could. I provided links to latimes, CDC d

Honestly since all my posts have been downvoted thats not really an incentive for me to continue further even though I could. I provided links to latimes, CDC data, and I get downvoted. Maybe Im wrong or maybe this topic is to contentious, but honestly is it even worth talking about anymore? Things are how they are any neither you or I will change it.

WalterGR 5y ago
It's never pleasant to have one's comments downvoted. But I think the issue is that the CDC data about ER visits and the LA Times story just don't say anything about how non-COVID deaths, but deaths 'due to' the COVID pandemic, have affected the excess mortality. Nobody (at least nobody worth listening to) is saying that zero people died because they didn't go to the ER, because they missed preventative care appointments, or because of misdiagnosis. But that's simply not the cause of the majority of the excess deaths. What numbers would you want to see on that? I suspect they're available... From another of your comments on this post: This covid stuff, I see a lot of people dying and a lot of money changing hands and a lot of... unclear things happening very fast all around us. By money changing hands do you mean the claim that hospitals exaggerate their COVID numbers because they get more money somehow? This is disproven, and many fact-checks have been published about it. Here's one from a FOX affiliate: https://fox11online.com/news/fox-11-investigates/fact-check-how-are-covid-19-deaths-counted-do-hospitals-get-money-for-covid-19-deaths https://fox11online.com/news/fox-11-investigates/fact-check-... things happening very fast all around us. That's very true. Being in the middle of a brand-new pandemic is disorienting. As time goes on, we'll have more hard data to guide policy decisions. Let's hope that politicians use it.
- gravyjones 5y ago
  For the CDC report you can read their article https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6923e1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6923e1.htm "The number of visits for conditions including nonspecific chest pain and acute myocardial infarction decreased, suggesting that some persons could be delaying care for conditions that might result in additional mortality if left untreated. " Or better yet, just glance their infographic: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/social-media/mm6923e1_EDVisitDeclinesCOVID19_IMAGE_03June20_1200x675-medium.jpg https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/social-media/mm6923e1... If you read between the lines, you know they have a serious problem here with people avoiding care. Billionaires net worth increased 70% [trillions] during pandemic: https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/28/politics/billionaire-wealth-tax/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/28/politics/billionaire-wealth-t... And I will say this: personally I've done quite well financially during the pandemic, through tech wages and investments. And part of me thinks, well the shift we are doing as a society is necessary as we step into the future. But part of me also feels bad for the people who have to lose and die to make this shift happen. We have so much momentum towards where our society feels it is destined to be, and covid just feels like an excuse to be another step in that direction. Maybe I should just shut my mouth and let it happen, but Im an idiot so there you have it.
  - WalterGR 5y ago
    Thanks for the info on what you meant by money changing hands. "The number of visits for conditions including nonspecific chest pain and acute myocardial infarction decreased, suggesting that some persons could be delaying care for conditions that might result in additional mortality if left untreated." Yep. Nobody is claiming that number is zero. The CDC report also notes "NSSP found that emergency department (ED) visits declined 42% during the early COVID-19 pandemic... with the steepest decreases in persons aged ≤14 years, females, and the Northeast." People aged ≤14 years just don't account for a large percentage of ER deaths. Or better yet, just glance their infographic: That infographic is confusing. While it says "A decline in visits for serious conditions might result in complications or death" that is not a statement about the 42% number. ER visits declined that much overall. (My guess based on the "might result in complications or death" phrasing is that it's supposed to be a warning for the general public to not skip the ER for serious conditions.) Re. myocardial infarction, https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234 reports an increase of approximately 30,000 deaths in the US in 2020 due to heart disease. Skimming https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/05/13/how-we-estimated-the-true-death-toll-of-the-pandemic https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/05/13/how-we-e... I don't see if they take into account known numbers such as that one. It does note "Many people with treatable medical conditions have died because they did not receive appropriate health care. Conversely, other people have survived who, were it not for the behavioural changes induced by covid-19, would have died from causes like influenza, air pollution or car accidents." What statistics would give you more confidence in excess death counts?
    - gravyjones 5y ago
      Well heres another one. massive increase in drug overdoses during pandemic: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/drug-overdose-deaths-2020-coronavirus-pandemic/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/drug-overdose-deaths-2020-coron...

WalterGR 5y ago

It's never pleasant to have one's comments downvoted. But I think the issue is that the CDC data about ER visits and the LA Times story just don't say anything about how non-COVID deaths, but deaths 'due to' the COVID pandemic, have affected the excess mortality. Nobody (at least nobody worth listening to) is saying that zero people died because they didn't go to the ER, because they missed preventative care appointments, or because of misdiagnosis. But that's simply not the cause of the majority of the excess deaths. What numbers would you want to see on that? I suspect they're available... From another of your comments on this post: This covid stuff, I see a lot of people dying and a lot of money changing hands and a lot of... unclear things happening very fast all around us. By money changing hands do you mean the claim that hospitals exaggerate their COVID numbers because they get more money somehow? This is disproven, and many fact-checks have been published about it. Here's one from a FOX affiliate: https://fox11online.com/news/fox-11-investigates/fact-check-how-are-covid-19-deaths-counted-do-hospitals-get-money-for-covid-19-deaths https://fox11online.com/news/fox-11-investigates/fact-check-... things happening very fast all around us. That's very true. Being in the middle of a brand-new pandemic is disorienting. As time goes on, we'll have more hard data to guide policy decisions. Let's hope that politicians use it.

gravyjones 5y ago
For the CDC report you can read their article https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6923e1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6923e1.htm "The number of visits for conditions including nonspecific chest pain and acute myocardial infarction decreased, suggesting that some persons could be delaying care for conditions that might result in additional mortality if left untreated. " Or better yet, just glance their infographic: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/social-media/mm6923e1_EDVisitDeclinesCOVID19_IMAGE_03June20_1200x675-medium.jpg https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/social-media/mm6923e1... If you read between the lines, you know they have a serious problem here with people avoiding care. Billionaires net worth increased 70% [trillions] during pandemic: https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/28/politics/billionaire-wealth-tax/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/28/politics/billionaire-wealth-t... And I will say this: personally I've done quite well financially during the pandemic, through tech wages and investments. And part of me thinks, well the shift we are doing as a society is necessary as we step into the future. But part of me also feels bad for the people who have to lose and die to make this shift happen. We have so much momentum towards where our society feels it is destined to be, and covid just feels like an excuse to be another step in that direction. Maybe I should just shut my mouth and let it happen, but Im an idiot so there you have it.
- WalterGR 5y ago
  Thanks for the info on what you meant by money changing hands. "The number of visits for conditions including nonspecific chest pain and acute myocardial infarction decreased, suggesting that some persons could be delaying care for conditions that might result in additional mortality if left untreated." Yep. Nobody is claiming that number is zero. The CDC report also notes "NSSP found that emergency department (ED) visits declined 42% during the early COVID-19 pandemic... with the steepest decreases in persons aged ≤14 years, females, and the Northeast." People aged ≤14 years just don't account for a large percentage of ER deaths. Or better yet, just glance their infographic: That infographic is confusing. While it says "A decline in visits for serious conditions might result in complications or death" that is not a statement about the 42% number. ER visits declined that much overall. (My guess based on the "might result in complications or death" phrasing is that it's supposed to be a warning for the general public to not skip the ER for serious conditions.) Re. myocardial infarction, https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234 reports an increase of approximately 30,000 deaths in the US in 2020 due to heart disease. Skimming https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/05/13/how-we-estimated-the-true-death-toll-of-the-pandemic https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/05/13/how-we-e... I don't see if they take into account known numbers such as that one. It does note "Many people with treatable medical conditions have died because they did not receive appropriate health care. Conversely, other people have survived who, were it not for the behavioural changes induced by covid-19, would have died from causes like influenza, air pollution or car accidents." What statistics would give you more confidence in excess death counts?
  - gravyjones 5y ago
    Well heres another one. massive increase in drug overdoses during pandemic: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/drug-overdose-deaths-2020-coronavirus-pandemic/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/drug-overdose-deaths-2020-coron...