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>Who cares that getting it to run on half of the roads (NVIDIA) is still not a solved problem because they stripped out any abstraction. a) nvidia's refusal to

>Who cares that getting it to run on half of the roads (NVIDIA) is still not a solved problem because they stripped out any abstraction. a) nvidia's refusal to implement GBM in their driver was their own choice. The abstraction was never removed; GBM is the abstraction over all drivers. b) nvidia already relented and implemented GBM in their driver. The latter doesn't necessarily mean nvidia is a good choice of GPU even now, because it requires a proprietary driver, so compositor / Mesa / kernel devs cannot debug the full stack when anything goes wrong. So having your problems ignored is something you'll have to get used to if you choose to use hardware that requires proprietary drivers, regardless of whether you use it with X or wayland. >As opposed to wayland which pushed 90% of features on the KDE/GOME/etc. guys (to be reimplemented in dozens of incompatible APIs). wlroots exists to solve that problem. Whether an individual compositor decides to use it or not is up to the compositor. At least in KDE's case, wlroots did not exist at the time they added Wayland support so of course it's understandable that they don't use it. There's a fork of kwin that uses wlroots ( https://gitlab.com/kwinft/kwinft https://gitlab.com/kwinft/kwinft ) but I believe it's just an experimental one-person effort rather than anything that kwin devs are working on as a replacement.

torginus 5y ago
Afaik the Steam Deck will use KWinFT, so if Valve is willing to bet on it, I don't think it's such a fringe project.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
josefx 5y ago
> So having your problems ignored is something you'll have to get used to if you choose to use hardware that requires proprietary drivers 3..2..1 and the floss copy pasta has arrived a bit delayed but still as expected. Might want to check if the server your bot is running on is a bit overcapacity to fix that delay. Still not going to amputate my leg over a stubbed toe even if RMS considers the toe cancer. > GBM is the abstraction over all drivers. One that never worked with half the hardware on the market, an issue that wasn't visible to anyone using X11.
- 5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
  I really don't see why a bunch of unpaid volunteers should bother to support the only player in town that refuses to play nicely and tries to strong-arm everybody else to use its technically inferior solution. Here's a nice write-up. I can imagine how nice it is to spend all your waking time trying to improve the Linux graphics stack and then listen to all the bullshit that we see in this discussion. https://drewdevault.com/2021/02/02/Anti-Wayland-horseshit.html https://drewdevault.com/2021/02/02/Anti-Wayland-horseshit.ht... That said, from what I heard, before nvidia backed down, GNOME and KDE developers started adding support for it in their Wayland compositors.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    > I can imagine how nice it is to spend all your waking time trying to improve the Linux graphics stack and then listen to all the bullshit that we see in this discussion. Is this really surprising? End users want their stuff to keep working with minimal changes. End users don't know and/or don't care that X is hard to maintain. They seen wayland coming, and they're scared that some of their stuff that they currently use will break. How exactly do you expect people to react to: > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. Regardless, I simply don’t give a shit about you anymore.
  - ddingus 5y ago
    The effort to improve is welcome and appreciated. Casting multi-use graphical computing aside is unwelcome. Most of the toxicity centers on HOW that discussion has played out. To be fair, many users coming up on single user graphical computing have no idea what the problem is, do not have use cases and we all know the rest. The users who do understand all that are pissed. They are being told none of it really matters or is necessary, and so on... Of course all that is definitely not appreciated however spiffy watching videos about it all may be. And, those users totally get the need to see the embedded use case improvements get done, and still are being asked to just forget multi user graphical computing was ever a thing because reasons... So yeah, here we are. People will care about Weyland exactly as much as the Weyland team cares about them. Multi user graphical computing aware users are not cared about at all despite their repeated explanations on how they depend on that capability. Depend, as in, not having it becomes very expensive for them. Expensive enough to wash away all the value they are being told matters more to everyone else. Non multi user graphical computing aware people basically just want it settled so they can have few overall worries. They feel some care aimed their way. The embedded people are super happy and are cared about a lot. All adds up to a very toxic state of affairs. Factoring it all down: Did we absolutely have to trade multi user graphical computing away? Should the answer be no, this whole ugly mess will go away. Continuing with a yes means a very painful and drawn out mess for years to come. And it will be that way because there are plenty of people who really do get a lot of value out of multi user graphical computing. Who knew? I bet the former X devs did. And they just do not care. Why exactly should they get any back in return?
Arnavion 5y ago
josefx: Since your reply was flagged, I'll reply here. >Still not going to amputate my leg over a stubbed toe even if RMS considers the toe cancer. I didn't say you should. I worded what I wrote specifically to indicate that I'm not passing any judgement on whether you made the right choice or the wrong choice. There are many people who bought nvidia GPUs because they worked fine, and were rightfully worried that they'd stop working fine if their DE of choice decided to switch to wayland or became abandoned. I empathize with their situation completely. All I'm saying is that you made the choice to buy hardware that requires a proprietary driver, and so you have to live with the consequences of that choice. This is not something unique to this situation involving nvidia GPUs. Only you have the right to decide whether it was a good choice or a bad one.

torginus 5y ago

Afaik the Steam Deck will use KWinFT, so if Valve is willing to bet on it, I don't think it's such a fringe project.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

josefx 5y ago

> So having your problems ignored is something you'll have to get used to if you choose to use hardware that requires proprietary drivers 3..2..1 and the floss copy pasta has arrived a bit delayed but still as expected. Might want to check if the server your bot is running on is a bit overcapacity to fix that delay. Still not going to amputate my leg over a stubbed toe even if RMS considers the toe cancer. > GBM is the abstraction over all drivers. One that never worked with half the hardware on the market, an issue that wasn't visible to anyone using X11.

5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
I really don't see why a bunch of unpaid volunteers should bother to support the only player in town that refuses to play nicely and tries to strong-arm everybody else to use its technically inferior solution. Here's a nice write-up. I can imagine how nice it is to spend all your waking time trying to improve the Linux graphics stack and then listen to all the bullshit that we see in this discussion. https://drewdevault.com/2021/02/02/Anti-Wayland-horseshit.html https://drewdevault.com/2021/02/02/Anti-Wayland-horseshit.ht... That said, from what I heard, before nvidia backed down, GNOME and KDE developers started adding support for it in their Wayland compositors.
- Zababa 5y ago
  > I can imagine how nice it is to spend all your waking time trying to improve the Linux graphics stack and then listen to all the bullshit that we see in this discussion. Is this really surprising? End users want their stuff to keep working with minimal changes. End users don't know and/or don't care that X is hard to maintain. They seen wayland coming, and they're scared that some of their stuff that they currently use will break. How exactly do you expect people to react to: > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. Regardless, I simply don’t give a shit about you anymore.
- ddingus 5y ago
  The effort to improve is welcome and appreciated. Casting multi-use graphical computing aside is unwelcome. Most of the toxicity centers on HOW that discussion has played out. To be fair, many users coming up on single user graphical computing have no idea what the problem is, do not have use cases and we all know the rest. The users who do understand all that are pissed. They are being told none of it really matters or is necessary, and so on... Of course all that is definitely not appreciated however spiffy watching videos about it all may be. And, those users totally get the need to see the embedded use case improvements get done, and still are being asked to just forget multi user graphical computing was ever a thing because reasons... So yeah, here we are. People will care about Weyland exactly as much as the Weyland team cares about them. Multi user graphical computing aware users are not cared about at all despite their repeated explanations on how they depend on that capability. Depend, as in, not having it becomes very expensive for them. Expensive enough to wash away all the value they are being told matters more to everyone else. Non multi user graphical computing aware people basically just want it settled so they can have few overall worries. They feel some care aimed their way. The embedded people are super happy and are cared about a lot. All adds up to a very toxic state of affairs. Factoring it all down: Did we absolutely have to trade multi user graphical computing away? Should the answer be no, this whole ugly mess will go away. Continuing with a yes means a very painful and drawn out mess for years to come. And it will be that way because there are plenty of people who really do get a lot of value out of multi user graphical computing. Who knew? I bet the former X devs did. And they just do not care. Why exactly should they get any back in return?

Arnavion 5y ago

josefx: Since your reply was flagged, I'll reply here. >Still not going to amputate my leg over a stubbed toe even if RMS considers the toe cancer. I didn't say you should. I worded what I wrote specifically to indicate that I'm not passing any judgement on whether you made the right choice or the wrong choice. There are many people who bought nvidia GPUs because they worked fine, and were rightfully worried that they'd stop working fine if their DE of choice decided to switch to wayland or became abandoned. I empathize with their situation completely. All I'm saying is that you made the choice to buy hardware that requires a proprietary driver, and so you have to live with the consequences of that choice. This is not something unique to this situation involving nvidia GPUs. Only you have the right to decide whether it was a good choice or a bad one.