12 ms·

Actually last time I tried CDE, maybe a few years ago, there were multiple areas where it was not possible to configure something with a GUI. Not just fonts. In

by md8z 5y ago

Actually last time I tried CDE, maybe a few years ago, there were multiple areas where it was not possible to configure something with a GUI. Not just fonts. In fact there were buttons in various settings panels that when you clicked them, would launch a text editor in an xterm window to edit a config file with no explanation of what you're supposed to be doing. I thought that was totally ridiculous. Sorry I can't mention something more specific but it was a while ago and I could be remembering it incorrectly. For a modern desktop I would also expect wayland support, and integration with networkmanager, pulseaudio/pipewire, udisks, things like that, which also didn't seem to be implemented last time I checked, but if any of this has changed then please let me know. Systrays and desktop files are like 15-20 years old so that's not really a compelling case for modern features...

badsectoracula 5y ago
Well, i also used CDE years ago so i don't know. As i wrote i wouldn't call it modern either but again the reason would be different :-P Some of the stuff i mentioned (and some you did) might be possible with 3rd party applications - i think the panel can embed small X apps to provide some functionality. In Window Maker (which is what i use) there isn't really tray icon support by WM but there is a "dockapp" (essentially a tiny X app that lives inside the Window Maker dock) that provides it. Something like that (or exactly that dockapp, it is an X application after all) might work for CDE for providing tray icons. Similarly for udisks and pulseaudio.
- md8z 5y ago
  Doesn't it defeat the purpose if you have to use third party apps? I thought the point was to get a modern Motif desktop, what does that matter if you're just going to install half the desktop from Wmaker or GNUstep or whatever.
  - badsectoracula 5y ago
    Not really, this sort of thinking is something that came waaay later in the Linux desktop. One of X's advantages is that you can do exactly that and some other desktops like LXDE are basically made up by bringing together separate components. (also the deskapps i mentioned aren't using GNUstep, they're either pure X or some other toolkit)
    - md8z 5y ago
      Yeah but if you're just going to swap out half the components anyway then you might as well just use KDE or something and do the same thing. And in my experience, that's a great way to get a desktop that's really inconsistent and doesn't work half the time because some random component is using the wrong set of X atoms or the wrong X resources or the wrong Dbus interface or whatever, so I don't know if I would say that's an advantage...
      - badsectoracula 5y ago
        That's just hyperbole, using some existing element in CDE or LXDE or whatever isn't like using KDE - you still get the interface that CDE or LXDE provides. I do not see how you'd make that conclusion. And i don't know what sort of experiences you had but at least personally i never had any issues with desktops made out of separate components. I mean, consider that Raspberry Pi OS' default desktop is basically a modified LXDE which is made up of a bunch of independent pieces. Also TBH what you describe with "doesn't work half the time because some random component is using the wrong set of X atoms or the wrong X resources or the wrong Dbus interface or whatever" doesn't make sense. If an application used the wrong X atoms or wrong X resources or wrong Dbus interfaces it wouldn't work at all regardless of which DE it is used with.
        md8z 5y ago
        Well they may work in some way but you'll see degraded functionality. I don't think it's hyperbole, every X window manager and panel, dock, etc that I've seen has support for a seemingly random jumble of motif and EWMH hints, and rarely will they support all of them. If you're using the standard Xresources then those might sometimes work in other apps, like Tcl/Tk and maybe FLTK I think supports it, but other things, not so much. And if you want good high DPI support with those apps then forget it. I cannot remember what the Raspberry Pi default desktop looks or acts like as I haven't used that in forever, sorry. All I remember is not liking it for other reasons, i.e. the DRM/KMS driver performance was too poor to be able to handle a compositor or play a 1080p video. But maybe that has changed recently?
  - Hegel3DReloaded 5y ago
    Having independent components that can be integrated with various window managers and lightweight DE's is the most UNIX-way of combining bits and pieces for flexibility and builting something for what on other systems one will need heavy machinery of C/C++ libraries and man-hours. Just imagine grep, cut, sed or awk ... as mime/content dependent tools which can be used only with XFCE. This whould be UNIX (dead end) if this thinking of "build everyting your own to work just for itself" attitude has been practiced back then, long ago. Sometimes it looks like past was the better future. I'm talking about things as stalonetray, dunst, xsettingsd, xscreensaver, dex and such ... which can nicely fit in CDE, NsCDE, as well as in WindowMaker, i3, Enightenment, FluxBox, OpenBox etc ...
GekkePrutser 5y ago
Correct, those "launcher" panels were not configurable by GUI. You had to edit config files. I spent considerable time figuring that out back in college. GUI configurability is definitely something I would expect in a modern desktop.
- Hegel3DReloaded 5y ago
  Right click on app item in Subpanel and "Copy to Main Panel" can be done without touching the keyboard, not to mention $EDITOR ...
yyyk 5y ago
>For a modern desktop I would also expect wayland support Is native Wayland support even possible with Motif, barring a significant porting effort? IIRC, it heavily relies on Xt/Xlib.

by md8z 5y ago

badsectoracula 5y ago

Well, i also used CDE years ago so i don't know. As i wrote i wouldn't call it modern either but again the reason would be different :-P Some of the stuff i mentioned (and some you did) might be possible with 3rd party applications - i think the panel can embed small X apps to provide some functionality. In Window Maker (which is what i use) there isn't really tray icon support by WM but there is a "dockapp" (essentially a tiny X app that lives inside the Window Maker dock) that provides it. Something like that (or exactly that dockapp, it is an X application after all) might work for CDE for providing tray icons. Similarly for udisks and pulseaudio.

md8z 5y ago
Doesn't it defeat the purpose if you have to use third party apps? I thought the point was to get a modern Motif desktop, what does that matter if you're just going to install half the desktop from Wmaker or GNUstep or whatever.
- badsectoracula 5y ago
  Not really, this sort of thinking is something that came waaay later in the Linux desktop. One of X's advantages is that you can do exactly that and some other desktops like LXDE are basically made up by bringing together separate components. (also the deskapps i mentioned aren't using GNUstep, they're either pure X or some other toolkit)
  - md8z 5y ago
    Yeah but if you're just going to swap out half the components anyway then you might as well just use KDE or something and do the same thing. And in my experience, that's a great way to get a desktop that's really inconsistent and doesn't work half the time because some random component is using the wrong set of X atoms or the wrong X resources or the wrong Dbus interface or whatever, so I don't know if I would say that's an advantage...
    - badsectoracula 5y ago
      That's just hyperbole, using some existing element in CDE or LXDE or whatever isn't like using KDE - you still get the interface that CDE or LXDE provides. I do not see how you'd make that conclusion. And i don't know what sort of experiences you had but at least personally i never had any issues with desktops made out of separate components. I mean, consider that Raspberry Pi OS' default desktop is basically a modified LXDE which is made up of a bunch of independent pieces. Also TBH what you describe with "doesn't work half the time because some random component is using the wrong set of X atoms or the wrong X resources or the wrong Dbus interface or whatever" doesn't make sense. If an application used the wrong X atoms or wrong X resources or wrong Dbus interfaces it wouldn't work at all regardless of which DE it is used with.
      - md8z 5y ago
        Well they may work in some way but you'll see degraded functionality. I don't think it's hyperbole, every X window manager and panel, dock, etc that I've seen has support for a seemingly random jumble of motif and EWMH hints, and rarely will they support all of them. If you're using the standard Xresources then those might sometimes work in other apps, like Tcl/Tk and maybe FLTK I think supports it, but other things, not so much. And if you want good high DPI support with those apps then forget it. I cannot remember what the Raspberry Pi default desktop looks or acts like as I haven't used that in forever, sorry. All I remember is not liking it for other reasons, i.e. the DRM/KMS driver performance was too poor to be able to handle a compositor or play a 1080p video. But maybe that has changed recently?
- Hegel3DReloaded 5y ago
  Having independent components that can be integrated with various window managers and lightweight DE's is the most UNIX-way of combining bits and pieces for flexibility and builting something for what on other systems one will need heavy machinery of C/C++ libraries and man-hours. Just imagine grep, cut, sed or awk ... as mime/content dependent tools which can be used only with XFCE. This whould be UNIX (dead end) if this thinking of "build everyting your own to work just for itself" attitude has been practiced back then, long ago. Sometimes it looks like past was the better future. I'm talking about things as stalonetray, dunst, xsettingsd, xscreensaver, dex and such ... which can nicely fit in CDE, NsCDE, as well as in WindowMaker, i3, Enightenment, FluxBox, OpenBox etc ...

GekkePrutser 5y ago

Correct, those "launcher" panels were not configurable by GUI. You had to edit config files. I spent considerable time figuring that out back in college. GUI configurability is definitely something I would expect in a modern desktop.

Hegel3DReloaded 5y ago
Right click on app item in Subpanel and "Copy to Main Panel" can be done without touching the keyboard, not to mention $EDITOR ...

yyyk 5y ago

>For a modern desktop I would also expect wayland support Is native Wayland support even possible with Motif, barring a significant porting effort? IIRC, it heavily relies on Xt/Xlib.