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I don’t understand how anyone can walk around downtown Seattle or San Francisco and say “yes I think legalized OTC heroin and meth is a great idea”.

TylerE 5y ago
Do you think it being illegal is stoping people form using those drugs?
- forrestthewoods 5y ago
  Obviously not. Do I think making those drugs legal and purchasable over the counter would make the situation better or worse? Worse, much worse.
  - TylerE 5y ago
    Really? From where I'm sitting, the major negative externalities are overdose deaths' (which are mostly for spiked doses/things not not being what they claimed) and gang activity. Legalization makes both of those go away.
version_five 5y ago
Because the situation in these cities is largely from the criminalization of drugs?
vkou 5y ago
Living in one, and visting the other, I would say that both cities would be better off if addicts could get it at a dispensary, instead of the dealer on 2nd and Pine. But it's true, there are some people who think that having an addict cause $5000 worth of damage to steal a $500 item that they'll pawn for $50 is preferable to just giving him a goddamn prescription. [1] At least with the status quo, nobody's conscience is troubled... If your goal is to stop people from being high, criminalization isn't doing it. If your goal is to stop people from taking more and more drugs until they eventually overdose, it's not doing that either. If your goal is to stop functional addicts from going down the drain into non-functional addiction, you're not even hitting the same ball park. [1] With an optional bonus level of spending $50,000 to prosecute and incarcerate and dump right back onto the street, if your town is into that sort of thing.
- will4274 5y ago
  > just giving him a goddamn prescription. You think we should just give them free drugs in addition to the housing and food we already give them? Because the drugs are cheaper than the robberies? Look, the simple fact is many people are not entrepreneurial. They work instead of doing drugs because they know they have to in order to have a decent go at life. If you just make being high all day and acceptable and low cost life decision, you could easily see 90% of people in some communities choose that option. We do actually exist on earth in the pitiful condition that if we all just sit on our asses and do nothing, we'll die.
  - Nursie 5y ago
    > You think we should just give them free drugs in addition to the housing and food we already give them? Because the drugs are cheaper than the robberies? Does that not seem pragmatic to you? While we give them those drugs we can make sure they're not getting anything nasty or weird in there so they don't just up and die, and we can help them recover when the opportunity presents. But if you'd rather live with more petty crime, and more expensive policing, more or less for the sake of being spiteful... well you get where we are today. > If you just make being high all day and acceptable and low cost life decision, you could easily see 90% of people in some communities choose that option. I think that would be a damning verdict on how unfulfilling and hopeless those communities have become regardless of drugs.
    - will4274 5y ago
      It's pragmatic in a thoroughly robotic sense. Most humans have this thing called empathy tho. > Unfulfilling and hopeless It's the human condition.
      - Nursie 5y ago
        > Most humans have this thing called empathy tho. Yeah, and that would surely cause most humans to empathise with other humans suffering from addiction, and help those others the best way they can, by a) reducing harm to the addicts and b) helping them overcome their addiction. The fact that this c) also reduces incident crime levels and reduces suffering for yet another group of humans is surely a bonus. 'Pragmatic' in this case is referring to taking actions you consider morally questionable, but with the aim of reduction of harm all around. I don't see how this is robotic or lacking in empathy. Quite the opposite. > It's the human condition. It's really not, not for 90% of a given community unless there is something else seriously wrong with that community.

TylerE 5y ago

Do you think it being illegal is stoping people form using those drugs?

forrestthewoods 5y ago
Obviously not. Do I think making those drugs legal and purchasable over the counter would make the situation better or worse? Worse, much worse.
- TylerE 5y ago
  Really? From where I'm sitting, the major negative externalities are overdose deaths' (which are mostly for spiked doses/things not not being what they claimed) and gang activity. Legalization makes both of those go away.

version_five 5y ago

Because the situation in these cities is largely from the criminalization of drugs?

vkou 5y ago

Living in one, and visting the other, I would say that both cities would be better off if addicts could get it at a dispensary, instead of the dealer on 2nd and Pine. But it's true, there are some people who think that having an addict cause $5000 worth of damage to steal a $500 item that they'll pawn for $50 is preferable to just giving him a goddamn prescription. [1] At least with the status quo, nobody's conscience is troubled... If your goal is to stop people from being high, criminalization isn't doing it. If your goal is to stop people from taking more and more drugs until they eventually overdose, it's not doing that either. If your goal is to stop functional addicts from going down the drain into non-functional addiction, you're not even hitting the same ball park. [1] With an optional bonus level of spending $50,000 to prosecute and incarcerate and dump right back onto the street, if your town is into that sort of thing.

will4274 5y ago
> just giving him a goddamn prescription. You think we should just give them free drugs in addition to the housing and food we already give them? Because the drugs are cheaper than the robberies? Look, the simple fact is many people are not entrepreneurial. They work instead of doing drugs because they know they have to in order to have a decent go at life. If you just make being high all day and acceptable and low cost life decision, you could easily see 90% of people in some communities choose that option. We do actually exist on earth in the pitiful condition that if we all just sit on our asses and do nothing, we'll die.
- Nursie 5y ago
  > You think we should just give them free drugs in addition to the housing and food we already give them? Because the drugs are cheaper than the robberies? Does that not seem pragmatic to you? While we give them those drugs we can make sure they're not getting anything nasty or weird in there so they don't just up and die, and we can help them recover when the opportunity presents. But if you'd rather live with more petty crime, and more expensive policing, more or less for the sake of being spiteful... well you get where we are today. > If you just make being high all day and acceptable and low cost life decision, you could easily see 90% of people in some communities choose that option. I think that would be a damning verdict on how unfulfilling and hopeless those communities have become regardless of drugs.
  - will4274 5y ago
    It's pragmatic in a thoroughly robotic sense. Most humans have this thing called empathy tho. > Unfulfilling and hopeless It's the human condition.
    - Nursie 5y ago
      > Most humans have this thing called empathy tho. Yeah, and that would surely cause most humans to empathise with other humans suffering from addiction, and help those others the best way they can, by a) reducing harm to the addicts and b) helping them overcome their addiction. The fact that this c) also reduces incident crime levels and reduces suffering for yet another group of humans is surely a bonus. 'Pragmatic' in this case is referring to taking actions you consider morally questionable, but with the aim of reduction of harm all around. I don't see how this is robotic or lacking in empathy. Quite the opposite. > It's the human condition. It's really not, not for 90% of a given community unless there is something else seriously wrong with that community.