4 ms·

> it's so odd that immensely huge features like these are still not yet charted The fact that this was in the South China Sea makes me wonder if the reason it'

by pdonis 5y ago

> it's so odd that immensely huge features like these are still not yet charted The fact that this was in the South China Sea makes me wonder if the reason it's uncharted is that the Chinese recently created it; for some time they have been building artificial islands in the South China Sea in order to claim that entire body of water as Chinese territorial waters. (It's outrageous that this doesn't get a lot more international attention; it's as if the United States started building artificial islands around the boundary of the Gulf of Mexico in order to declare all of that to be US territorial waters. Imagine the outcry.)

Goety 5y ago
Maybe they were saying haha we know where you patrol
mediaman 5y ago
The South China Sea issue does get a fair amount of attention. It is very unlikely that this is the cause of the Muirfield Seamount. They would have had to artificially create an underwater mountain taller than Mount Rainier to do so. The surrounding water is 16,000 feet deep.
jacquesm 5y ago
Inconceivable. And I do know what that word means.
LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
There was this a while ago, in a region not that far away. [1] https://www.volcanocafe.org/japan-the-fukutuko-oka-no-ba-eruption/ https://www.volcanocafe.org/japan-the-fukutuko-oka-no-ba-eru... [2] https://www.ladbible.com/news/news-ghost-ships-brought-up-from-sea-bed-following-volcanic-activity-20211028 https://www.ladbible.com/news/news-ghost-ships-brought-up-fr... Also other recent volcanic activity in Japan, with news about volcanic ash from underwater volcano blocking harbors. Maybe similar things happened there, not so visible, and weren't charted because of that, being new?
dirtyid 5y ago
>It's outrageous that this doesn't get a lot more international attention It gets disproportionate "international" attention in US-led countries considering PRC was 2nd last out of 6 claimants in SCS to conduct land reclamation. You simply did not and do not hear about Vietnam, Philipines, Taiwan, Malaysia when they reclaim land and militarize the SCS in each others disputed territories, before PRC responded to defend her claims even though PRC claims (which were inherited from ROC) predates everyone else's > Imagine the outcry. Nor do you hear much about ITLOS ruling against UK and by connection America's now illegally leased base in Diego Garcia occupying Chagos Archipelago / Mauritian territory. No outcry over this in MSM over ruling despite decolonization of Mauritius being explicitly endorsed by UN general assembly. Where as UN has no formal position on merits of Philipines vs PRC PCA ruling over SCS disputes. Globally, there is very little "outcry" simply because it's not an existential issue for countries outside the region, and media bubble is hypocritical when it comes to geopolitical interests. US actually breaking international law in context of UN, versus China not. This point is important, China is in compliance with rule-based multilateralism order of the UN. Versus the PCA ruling that is largely byproduct of US-centred "rule based" order (aka not actually international order but west likes to conflate as de-facto international order)... for which US hasn't even ratified UNCLOS. At the end of the day west will fixate over PRC's not illegal sheninangans in SCS but not UK/US illegal shenanigans in Diego Garcia because everyone manufactures their own consent.
- Arnt 5y ago
  Interesting. Do you have any links for the earlier land reclamation?
  - dirtyid 5y ago
    Mostly academic sources, i.e. Taylor Fravel who specializes in PRC territorial disputes from back in the day had a detailed timeline iirc. Excerpt from report by asistant secretary of defense from 2015. Note date range to 2014 to conveniently overlook fact that PRC began reclaimation in Dec 2013. And emphasis that PRC and Brunai did not have airstrips / serious military projection capabilities which sparked reclaimation race. >Over the past two decades, all of the territorial claimants, other than Brunei, have developed outposts in the South China Sea, which they use to project civilian or maritime presence into surrounding waters, assert their sovereignty claims to land features, and monitor the activities of other claimants. In the Spratly islands, Vietnam has 48 outposts; the Philippines, 8; China, 8; Malaysia, 5, and Taiwan, 1. All of these same claimants have also engaged in construction activity of differing scope and degree. The types of outpost upgrades vary across claimants but broadly are comprised of land reclamation, building construction and extension, and defense emplacements. Between 2009 and 2014, Vietnam was the most active claimant in terms of both outpost upgrades and land reclamation, reclaiming approximately 60 acres. All territorial claimants, with the exception of China and Brunei, have also already built airstrips of varying sizes and functionality on disputed features in the Spratlys. These efforts by claimants have resulted in a tit-for-tat dynamic which continues to date. https://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/051315_Shear_Testimony.pdf https://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/051315_Shear_Te...
mikewarot 5y ago
That seamount was above water until the end of the Younger dryas, and the 100+ meters of sea level rise that came with it. Perhaps it was once a coral reef?
throwaway210222 5y ago
The Monroe Doctrine doesn't count? What do they teach at MIT ?

by pdonis 5y ago

Goety 5y ago

Maybe they were saying haha we know where you patrol

mediaman 5y ago

The South China Sea issue does get a fair amount of attention. It is very unlikely that this is the cause of the Muirfield Seamount. They would have had to artificially create an underwater mountain taller than Mount Rainier to do so. The surrounding water is 16,000 feet deep.

jacquesm 5y ago

Inconceivable. And I do know what that word means.

LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago

There was this a while ago, in a region not that far away. [1] https://www.volcanocafe.org/japan-the-fukutuko-oka-no-ba-eruption/ https://www.volcanocafe.org/japan-the-fukutuko-oka-no-ba-eru... [2] https://www.ladbible.com/news/news-ghost-ships-brought-up-from-sea-bed-following-volcanic-activity-20211028 https://www.ladbible.com/news/news-ghost-ships-brought-up-fr... Also other recent volcanic activity in Japan, with news about volcanic ash from underwater volcano blocking harbors. Maybe similar things happened there, not so visible, and weren't charted because of that, being new?

dirtyid 5y ago

>It's outrageous that this doesn't get a lot more international attention It gets disproportionate "international" attention in US-led countries considering PRC was 2nd last out of 6 claimants in SCS to conduct land reclamation. You simply did not and do not hear about Vietnam, Philipines, Taiwan, Malaysia when they reclaim land and militarize the SCS in each others disputed territories, before PRC responded to defend her claims even though PRC claims (which were inherited from ROC) predates everyone else's > Imagine the outcry. Nor do you hear much about ITLOS ruling against UK and by connection America's now illegally leased base in Diego Garcia occupying Chagos Archipelago / Mauritian territory. No outcry over this in MSM over ruling despite decolonization of Mauritius being explicitly endorsed by UN general assembly. Where as UN has no formal position on merits of Philipines vs PRC PCA ruling over SCS disputes. Globally, there is very little "outcry" simply because it's not an existential issue for countries outside the region, and media bubble is hypocritical when it comes to geopolitical interests. US actually breaking international law in context of UN, versus China not. This point is important, China is in compliance with rule-based multilateralism order of the UN. Versus the PCA ruling that is largely byproduct of US-centred "rule based" order (aka not actually international order but west likes to conflate as de-facto international order)... for which US hasn't even ratified UNCLOS. At the end of the day west will fixate over PRC's not illegal sheninangans in SCS but not UK/US illegal shenanigans in Diego Garcia because everyone manufactures their own consent.

Arnt 5y ago
Interesting. Do you have any links for the earlier land reclamation?
- dirtyid 5y ago
  Mostly academic sources, i.e. Taylor Fravel who specializes in PRC territorial disputes from back in the day had a detailed timeline iirc. Excerpt from report by asistant secretary of defense from 2015. Note date range to 2014 to conveniently overlook fact that PRC began reclaimation in Dec 2013. And emphasis that PRC and Brunai did not have airstrips / serious military projection capabilities which sparked reclaimation race. >Over the past two decades, all of the territorial claimants, other than Brunei, have developed outposts in the South China Sea, which they use to project civilian or maritime presence into surrounding waters, assert their sovereignty claims to land features, and monitor the activities of other claimants. In the Spratly islands, Vietnam has 48 outposts; the Philippines, 8; China, 8; Malaysia, 5, and Taiwan, 1. All of these same claimants have also engaged in construction activity of differing scope and degree. The types of outpost upgrades vary across claimants but broadly are comprised of land reclamation, building construction and extension, and defense emplacements. Between 2009 and 2014, Vietnam was the most active claimant in terms of both outpost upgrades and land reclamation, reclaiming approximately 60 acres. All territorial claimants, with the exception of China and Brunei, have also already built airstrips of varying sizes and functionality on disputed features in the Spratlys. These efforts by claimants have resulted in a tit-for-tat dynamic which continues to date. https://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/051315_Shear_Testimony.pdf https://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/051315_Shear_Te...

mikewarot 5y ago

That seamount was above water until the end of the Younger dryas, and the 100+ meters of sea level rise that came with it. Perhaps it was once a coral reef?

throwaway210222 5y ago

The Monroe Doctrine doesn't count? What do they teach at MIT ?