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Frankly the problem is, none of these are really well defined. I think Zuck wants the general consensus to lean towards: VR - Is a user interface. Metaverse is

Frankly the problem is, none of these are really well defined. I think Zuck wants the general consensus to lean towards: VR - Is a user interface. Metaverse is a network built for that user interface. Historically, we had screen and keyboard based user interfaces, and with it text based gaming like Zork. Then we had screen and controller based user interfaces, and with it games like Pong. At a certain point we got the screen and mouse user interface, and with it FPS, RTS, like Warcraft and Doom. Touch screens were again a new user interface and with it came games like Fruit Ninja. VR now exists as a user interface (although still needs to be improved) and many people love playing Skyrim with it, or Beat Saber. All of these were mostly local experiences with different (better?) user interfaces. Meanwhile, each user interface had its own networks that were built on them. e.g. Email is a "first class network" built on the text based user interface. e.g. WWW is a "first class network" built on the mouse based user interface. The metaverse isn't a new user interface. The metaverse is a "first class network" built on top of the VR based user interface.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Retric 5y ago
The issue is VR is in practice a really terrible interface for widespread shared user experiences. MMO’s are almost exclusively played in 3rd person perspective in part because looking at eye level prevents you from seeing behind the person in front of you, and removing collision detection doesn’t help. Think of walking around a crowded convention and you really can’t see many people at the same time. You can of course swap perspectives with VR, but face to avatar conversations don’t add much. Their missing out on facial expressions so in practice it’s mostly just shared voice chat with a tiny percentage of body language. The only thing linking metaverse and VR is basic buzzword bingo, they don’t gain anything from being linked.
- ano88888 5y ago
  but you need to realize what is possible today will not be the same as what will be available 10 or 20 years down to road with so much dollars pouring into research from all these big corporations/governments around the world.
  - vintermann 5y ago
    Plenty of "metaversy" things are possible today, but rejected by users. Second Life is a tiny niche. Connecting Minecraft servers with portals has been possible for ages, and smooth connections seems like it wouldn't be terribly difficult, yet no one uses it because no one wants it. And despite the huge increases in VR quality that has happened already, none of this has changed. You suggest it's because the VR isn't good enough yet, but I think the evidence so far suggests VR is not the missing ingredient for people to want to live in a common virtual world.
    - garydevenay 5y ago
      > Plenty of "metaversy" things are possible today, but rejected by users. While I agree with you on this; online dating was seen as something only desperate people would do, until it was for everyone.
- yazaddaruvala 5y ago
  > MMO’s are almost exclusively played in 3rd person perspective in part because looking at eye level prevents you from seeing behind the person in front of you I mean, yes I agree. There are some workarounds, i.e. you could jump, in VR it’s very fast to swivel your head, look around the people in front of you or look behind you. That said, I very much agree, I wouldn’t want to play WOW in VR. The DBM style warning zones on the ground alone would kill the UX. Meanwhile, as a HPally, I played WOW primarily in 2D :)(specifically raid frames). I’m very certain I would continue to play VR WOW in 2D as well. Some sort of console attached to my arm or floating in front of me to 1. See who has my beacon/buffs/debuffs 2. Quickly chose targets to spot heal or cure. However, I’m very excited to try the second big VR-first MMO (basically the WOW not the EverQuest) built exclusively for VR!!! Maybe, it’s a lot more skill shots, maybe it’s more aoe heals. I can’t even imagine how spot heals or cures would be targeted. Maybe it would feel like being a QB and Id need to literally throw Madden style spirals to land my spot heals??? THAT COULD BE SICK (although that skill floor/cap might be too high to balance boss fights well). I’m not smart enough to predict the actual implementation. But I know there is enough money to be made that someones will iteratively make it happen.
  - test6554 5y ago
    In a metaverse, you could put a 3rd person perspective with a higher vantage point on the character's arm/wrist display and use it to navigate.
    - jauco 5y ago
      There’s no physics. You can make everyone’s eye-level a few inches above the place their head is rendered for the rest. So everyone is just a bit taller than everyone else. Simultaneously
- tlrobinson 5y ago
  > missing out on facial expressions Give it a few years and every new VR headset will have facial expression sensors.
- scoopertrooper 5y ago
  VR brings limitations and capabilities like any other mode of interaction. Mobile games don't play well on PC and PC games don't play well on mobile. I'm sure some clever folks will find a way to build a MMO that works for VR. Maybe characters will have magical x-ray glasses that renders other characters semi-transparent, so they can look through the crowd? Perhaps VR MMO games will be grander in spatial scale with lots of small towns to limit players clumping together city centres. Maybe, trying to find something in a crowded marketplace with lots of distractions, could be a part of the quest?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Retric 5y ago

The issue is VR is in practice a really terrible interface for widespread shared user experiences. MMO’s are almost exclusively played in 3rd person perspective in part because looking at eye level prevents you from seeing behind the person in front of you, and removing collision detection doesn’t help. Think of walking around a crowded convention and you really can’t see many people at the same time. You can of course swap perspectives with VR, but face to avatar conversations don’t add much. Their missing out on facial expressions so in practice it’s mostly just shared voice chat with a tiny percentage of body language. The only thing linking metaverse and VR is basic buzzword bingo, they don’t gain anything from being linked.

ano88888 5y ago
but you need to realize what is possible today will not be the same as what will be available 10 or 20 years down to road with so much dollars pouring into research from all these big corporations/governments around the world.
- vintermann 5y ago
  Plenty of "metaversy" things are possible today, but rejected by users. Second Life is a tiny niche. Connecting Minecraft servers with portals has been possible for ages, and smooth connections seems like it wouldn't be terribly difficult, yet no one uses it because no one wants it. And despite the huge increases in VR quality that has happened already, none of this has changed. You suggest it's because the VR isn't good enough yet, but I think the evidence so far suggests VR is not the missing ingredient for people to want to live in a common virtual world.
  - garydevenay 5y ago
    > Plenty of "metaversy" things are possible today, but rejected by users. While I agree with you on this; online dating was seen as something only desperate people would do, until it was for everyone.
yazaddaruvala 5y ago
> MMO’s are almost exclusively played in 3rd person perspective in part because looking at eye level prevents you from seeing behind the person in front of you I mean, yes I agree. There are some workarounds, i.e. you could jump, in VR it’s very fast to swivel your head, look around the people in front of you or look behind you. That said, I very much agree, I wouldn’t want to play WOW in VR. The DBM style warning zones on the ground alone would kill the UX. Meanwhile, as a HPally, I played WOW primarily in 2D :)(specifically raid frames). I’m very certain I would continue to play VR WOW in 2D as well. Some sort of console attached to my arm or floating in front of me to 1. See who has my beacon/buffs/debuffs 2. Quickly chose targets to spot heal or cure. However, I’m very excited to try the second big VR-first MMO (basically the WOW not the EverQuest) built exclusively for VR!!! Maybe, it’s a lot more skill shots, maybe it’s more aoe heals. I can’t even imagine how spot heals or cures would be targeted. Maybe it would feel like being a QB and Id need to literally throw Madden style spirals to land my spot heals??? THAT COULD BE SICK (although that skill floor/cap might be too high to balance boss fights well). I’m not smart enough to predict the actual implementation. But I know there is enough money to be made that someones will iteratively make it happen.
- test6554 5y ago
  In a metaverse, you could put a 3rd person perspective with a higher vantage point on the character's arm/wrist display and use it to navigate.
  - jauco 5y ago
    There’s no physics. You can make everyone’s eye-level a few inches above the place their head is rendered for the rest. So everyone is just a bit taller than everyone else. Simultaneously
tlrobinson 5y ago
> missing out on facial expressions Give it a few years and every new VR headset will have facial expression sensors.
scoopertrooper 5y ago
VR brings limitations and capabilities like any other mode of interaction. Mobile games don't play well on PC and PC games don't play well on mobile. I'm sure some clever folks will find a way to build a MMO that works for VR. Maybe characters will have magical x-ray glasses that renders other characters semi-transparent, so they can look through the crowd? Perhaps VR MMO games will be grander in spatial scale with lots of small towns to limit players clumping together city centres. Maybe, trying to find something in a crowded marketplace with lots of distractions, could be a part of the quest?