3 ms·

This should be dated 2018 in the title. Very old news in tech terms.

by harles 5y ago

vmception 5y ago
But a good time to revisit FOSTA/SESTA to see if those laws are worth it
- floatingatoll 5y ago
  And then to post a relevant link about it.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Agreed. I've noticed an uptick of what appears to be sex workers on dating apps. Surely some of them were trafficked, just like some were on Craiglist. I'm not sure why Craiglist personals weren't okay, but the same exact thing on Tinder or Bumble is.
  - jdavis703 5y ago
    Banning all dating services would have immediate public backlash. SESTA/FOSTA really only caused a stir among people who care about sex work or tech freedom/privacy. There was very little mainstream media coverage of it, and the little there was took a heavy slant to the anti-sex trafficking angle.
    - vmception 5y ago
      Looks like there is a constitutional challenge in progress, 9th circuit too so could go any direction after district court
  - _jal 5y ago
    Craigslist felt at risk of being targeted the same way Backpage was. Not wishing to go to jail, they chose to remove anything that could possibly be used against them.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Craigslist felt at risk of being targeted the same way Backpage was. Craigslist had already been targeted multiple times by law enforcement, and had revised the structure and policies of their personals sections multiple times to try to stop that. SESTA/FOSTA was when they gave up trying to find a way to make it work, but it wasn't just the Backpage example.
  - cowmoo728 5y ago
    Take a look at the #fmty (fly me to you) hashtag on twitter someday. Twitter has become an open market for adult services.
  - vmception 5y ago
    Its all about the liability they are willing to assume. Dont confuse that with the law itself. Its the same about wondering why one person gets culturally “cancelled” and another doesn't for the same action: The people beside them have a large enough rainy day fund and don't mind the risk. It says nothing about what the culture actually believes either way, only the risk tolerance of the wealthy backers. Huh, reminds me of the princeton study that said the same thing about progressive laws that get passed, where the culture has no effect on anything except that sometimes it coincidentally matches what wealthy special interests were already doing, with the caveat that its more of a direct democracy for the wealthy special interests but an additional level of representative democracy for everyone else.
- _jal 5y ago
  It is. Techdirt has been excellent at tracking this stuff, as they do: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20210728/13245147264/enough-about-fostas-unintended-consequences-they-were-always-intended.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20210728/13245147264/enoug... The short version: it is pretty obvious that it did what the people pushing it wanted it to do, but it did not do what they said it would do. They continue to lie about it in multiple ways. The same actors are currently targeting payment processors in their continued attempts to conflate and ban prostitution, trafficking, pornography, nudity and frequently sex education wherever they can. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20211008/17285147720/prudish-mastercard-about-to-make-life-difficult-tons-websites.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20211008/17285147720/prudi...
- tyingq 5y ago
  If it's lucrative, the listings don't go away. They just end up on sites that are out of reach of FOSTA/SESTA.
_trampeltier 5y ago
Now in 2021 we can see what changed. Do we live now in a so much safer world?
- tata71 5y ago
  No, now we just have a bunch of mixed signals in the rooms for rent section....
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  No. Backpage, in its dealings with law enforcement, operated as a model of cooperation, transparency, and proactive outreach in these matters, and received plaudits from multiple law enforcement agencies for this. Its availability also made it more difficult for pimps and organized crime to monopolize the trade in a region, as they exploited or even trafficked women. When it was shut down and seized and its founders prosecuted, it was a win for the DoJ PR department and for dangerous sex traffickers, and a loss for the rest of the world. I’m morally against all of this myself in principle, but you can’t just endorse prohibition without considering the consequences: even if all this is bad you can’t just say “this is bad!!” as an excuse for making it significantly worse as you lie to the public and slander the operators.
- paulgb 5y ago
  > Law enforcement officials say that it is sometimes more difficult to track traffickers, because the law pushed them further underground. Advocates say that sex workers now face higher safety risks. The removal of sites advertising sex hinders their ability to vet their clients, the advocates say, and is pushing more of them onto the streets. From Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground (Dec 2019) https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/17/technology/fosta-sex-trafficking-law.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/17/technology/fosta-sex-traf...

This should be dated 2018 in the title. Very old news in tech terms.

by harles 5y ago

This should be dated 2018 in the title. Very old news in tech terms.

vmception 5y ago

But a good time to revisit FOSTA/SESTA to see if those laws are worth it

floatingatoll 5y ago
And then to post a relevant link about it.
heavyset_go 5y ago
Agreed. I've noticed an uptick of what appears to be sex workers on dating apps. Surely some of them were trafficked, just like some were on Craiglist. I'm not sure why Craiglist personals weren't okay, but the same exact thing on Tinder or Bumble is.
- jdavis703 5y ago
  Banning all dating services would have immediate public backlash. SESTA/FOSTA really only caused a stir among people who care about sex work or tech freedom/privacy. There was very little mainstream media coverage of it, and the little there was took a heavy slant to the anti-sex trafficking angle.
  - vmception 5y ago
    Looks like there is a constitutional challenge in progress, 9th circuit too so could go any direction after district court
- _jal 5y ago
  Craigslist felt at risk of being targeted the same way Backpage was. Not wishing to go to jail, they chose to remove anything that could possibly be used against them.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Craigslist felt at risk of being targeted the same way Backpage was. Craigslist had already been targeted multiple times by law enforcement, and had revised the structure and policies of their personals sections multiple times to try to stop that. SESTA/FOSTA was when they gave up trying to find a way to make it work, but it wasn't just the Backpage example.
- cowmoo728 5y ago
  Take a look at the #fmty (fly me to you) hashtag on twitter someday. Twitter has become an open market for adult services.
- vmception 5y ago
  Its all about the liability they are willing to assume. Dont confuse that with the law itself. Its the same about wondering why one person gets culturally “cancelled” and another doesn't for the same action: The people beside them have a large enough rainy day fund and don't mind the risk. It says nothing about what the culture actually believes either way, only the risk tolerance of the wealthy backers. Huh, reminds me of the princeton study that said the same thing about progressive laws that get passed, where the culture has no effect on anything except that sometimes it coincidentally matches what wealthy special interests were already doing, with the caveat that its more of a direct democracy for the wealthy special interests but an additional level of representative democracy for everyone else.
_jal 5y ago
It is. Techdirt has been excellent at tracking this stuff, as they do: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20210728/13245147264/enough-about-fostas-unintended-consequences-they-were-always-intended.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20210728/13245147264/enoug... The short version: it is pretty obvious that it did what the people pushing it wanted it to do, but it did not do what they said it would do. They continue to lie about it in multiple ways. The same actors are currently targeting payment processors in their continued attempts to conflate and ban prostitution, trafficking, pornography, nudity and frequently sex education wherever they can. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20211008/17285147720/prudish-mastercard-about-to-make-life-difficult-tons-websites.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20211008/17285147720/prudi...
tyingq 5y ago
If it's lucrative, the listings don't go away. They just end up on sites that are out of reach of FOSTA/SESTA.

_trampeltier 5y ago

Now in 2021 we can see what changed. Do we live now in a so much safer world?

tata71 5y ago
No, now we just have a bunch of mixed signals in the rooms for rent section....
fennecfoxen 5y ago
No. Backpage, in its dealings with law enforcement, operated as a model of cooperation, transparency, and proactive outreach in these matters, and received plaudits from multiple law enforcement agencies for this. Its availability also made it more difficult for pimps and organized crime to monopolize the trade in a region, as they exploited or even trafficked women. When it was shut down and seized and its founders prosecuted, it was a win for the DoJ PR department and for dangerous sex traffickers, and a loss for the rest of the world. I’m morally against all of this myself in principle, but you can’t just endorse prohibition without considering the consequences: even if all this is bad you can’t just say “this is bad!!” as an excuse for making it significantly worse as you lie to the public and slander the operators.
paulgb 5y ago
> Law enforcement officials say that it is sometimes more difficult to track traffickers, because the law pushed them further underground. Advocates say that sex workers now face higher safety risks. The removal of sites advertising sex hinders their ability to vet their clients, the advocates say, and is pushing more of them onto the streets. From Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground (Dec 2019) https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/17/technology/fosta-sex-trafficking-law.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/17/technology/fosta-sex-traf...