5 ms·

> That's just reads like BS. Because it partly is. It's just a lame defence / justification of soldering SSD, RAM and other parts, the major advantage of which

> That's just reads like BS. Because it partly is. It's just a lame defence / justification of soldering SSD, RAM and other parts, the major advantage of which is to make modern electronics more complex, hard to repair and prevent upgrades (i.e. "planned obsolescence"). If SSDs were reliable beyond 5+ years, manufacturers would be highlighting that and even offering guarantees for such a period. (Hell, most RAM today come with "lifetime" guarantees, even though RAM modules too fail occasionally). The modular design for computer hardware was chosen for a practical reason - that hardware can, and do fail. While electronic manufacturing has advanced a lot, minimizing failure rates to a great extent, the pros of replaceable modules absolutely still outweigh any of the alternative hardware designs so far.

bitwize 5y ago
Except soldering everything on can give you HUGE performance boosts. Like, laptops come with soldered-on RAM that you can't get in a DIMM configuration because the soldered on stuff is so fast it needs a fast path to the CPU, which DIMM slots can't provide. And now with Apple building all system RAM directly into the chip die, it's just a whole new ballgame. So you can either go modular and have a slow PC, or you can have decent performance and just accept that everything is going to be soldered on and irreplaceable.
- CelestialTeapot 5y ago
  Sorry, what? Citation please. The speed lost moving a DIMM from a 3cm path-to-CPU to a removable DIMM slot 6cm away is infinitesimal. You would not notice it.
  - wtallis 5y ago
    For laptops, soldered vs socketed DRAM is mostly about power, not performance. But it is true that soldering DRAM makes it possible to reach higher bus speeds than are practical to achieve through a DIMM slot; this is why GPUs don't have upgradable RAM.
    - floatboth 5y ago
      Laptops that have soldered RAM (including Apple) do not come with overclocked RAM though. I don't even know of any system with soldered RAM that would let you try pushing the speeds in practice, so this advantage is never leveraged. But we do know how far DIMMs can go. Mainboard memory trace layouts have gotten ridiculously optimized. DDR4-5200 is a totally "normal" XMP spec now, there are even 5400 kits out there I think.
      - tpetry 5y ago
        Who is saying the soldered ram is never overclocked? You cant overclock changeable ram by default because you don‘t know what the customer will use. But by soldering the ram you know you will use very specific parts, so you could (maybe they do?) tune the settings because it does not have to work with thousands of combinations.
      - wtallis 5y ago
        > Laptops that have soldered RAM (including Apple) do not come with overclocked RAM though. I don't even know of any system with soldered RAM that would let you try pushing the speeds in practice, so this advantage is never leveraged. This is unsurprising given what I already pointed out about power being more important than maximizing performance. Sure, you can overclock the memory controller on a desktop platform and with sufficiently expensive DIMMs and probably a bit of an overvolt for the memory controller/uncore you can reach higher bus speeds than any laptop CPU (though still not anywhere near as high as GDDR used with high-end mobile GPUs). But take a look at the fastest memory speeds available through SODIMM slots vs the speed of LPDDR4x supported by the same CPUs. Within the constraints of laptop power levels and using standard grade memory parts rather than requiring premium binned chips, soldering currently corresponds to a 33% performance advantage.
  - tzs 5y ago
    The speed lost due to distance would be infinitesimal, but is that the only speed loss there would be? I'd expect that parasitic inductance and parasitic capacitance would be higher in a socketed system which would impose speed limits.
  - brokenmachine 5y ago
    I've read that nowadays because they effectively have 8-channel or 16-channel RAM, there would just be too many connections to make them removable. Imagine 8 DIMMs next to each other, and then fitting that into a laptop form factor.
    - floatboth 5y ago
      Channel != DIMM. Many small channels is just how LPDDR works, as opposed to DDR which has one big chungus channel. Well DDR5 has now split it in two. The total number of traces is the same.
- alpaca128 5y ago
  This argument doesn't work with Apple. They built laptops that could literally just use 50% of their CPU because of insufficient cooling. Not too long ago they released a Macbook with a CPU cooler that doesn't even have direct contact with the CPU. And when LTT modded the cooler to fix it they realised the performance was still not better because the power delivery is insufficient as well. Also our PCs are not slow, modular or not. In many cases hardware is not the bottleneck.
  - inb4_cancelled 5y ago
    Maybe that CPU cooler wasn't really a CPU cooler after all, if it didn't have direct contact with the CPU. Maybe the fan was more of a case fan and it simply ran air through the whole machine INCLUDING the CPU heatsink, which is AFAIK exactly how it worked.
- webmobdev 5y ago
  I have seen many comments parroting this line but none of you provide a source to back this assertion. Your claim that modular PC's RAM is slower is quite ignorant 'cos the bandwidth for the RAM bus has been consistently increasingly (currently DDR5) and remain the same whether it is soldered or modular.

bitwize 5y ago

Except soldering everything on can give you HUGE performance boosts. Like, laptops come with soldered-on RAM that you can't get in a DIMM configuration because the soldered on stuff is so fast it needs a fast path to the CPU, which DIMM slots can't provide. And now with Apple building all system RAM directly into the chip die, it's just a whole new ballgame. So you can either go modular and have a slow PC, or you can have decent performance and just accept that everything is going to be soldered on and irreplaceable.

CelestialTeapot 5y ago
Sorry, what? Citation please. The speed lost moving a DIMM from a 3cm path-to-CPU to a removable DIMM slot 6cm away is infinitesimal. You would not notice it.
- wtallis 5y ago
  For laptops, soldered vs socketed DRAM is mostly about power, not performance. But it is true that soldering DRAM makes it possible to reach higher bus speeds than are practical to achieve through a DIMM slot; this is why GPUs don't have upgradable RAM.
  - floatboth 5y ago
    Laptops that have soldered RAM (including Apple) do not come with overclocked RAM though. I don't even know of any system with soldered RAM that would let you try pushing the speeds in practice, so this advantage is never leveraged. But we do know how far DIMMs can go. Mainboard memory trace layouts have gotten ridiculously optimized. DDR4-5200 is a totally "normal" XMP spec now, there are even 5400 kits out there I think.
    - tpetry 5y ago
      Who is saying the soldered ram is never overclocked? You cant overclock changeable ram by default because you don‘t know what the customer will use. But by soldering the ram you know you will use very specific parts, so you could (maybe they do?) tune the settings because it does not have to work with thousands of combinations.
    - wtallis 5y ago
      > Laptops that have soldered RAM (including Apple) do not come with overclocked RAM though. I don't even know of any system with soldered RAM that would let you try pushing the speeds in practice, so this advantage is never leveraged. This is unsurprising given what I already pointed out about power being more important than maximizing performance. Sure, you can overclock the memory controller on a desktop platform and with sufficiently expensive DIMMs and probably a bit of an overvolt for the memory controller/uncore you can reach higher bus speeds than any laptop CPU (though still not anywhere near as high as GDDR used with high-end mobile GPUs). But take a look at the fastest memory speeds available through SODIMM slots vs the speed of LPDDR4x supported by the same CPUs. Within the constraints of laptop power levels and using standard grade memory parts rather than requiring premium binned chips, soldering currently corresponds to a 33% performance advantage.
- tzs 5y ago
  The speed lost due to distance would be infinitesimal, but is that the only speed loss there would be? I'd expect that parasitic inductance and parasitic capacitance would be higher in a socketed system which would impose speed limits.
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  I've read that nowadays because they effectively have 8-channel or 16-channel RAM, there would just be too many connections to make them removable. Imagine 8 DIMMs next to each other, and then fitting that into a laptop form factor.
  - floatboth 5y ago
    Channel != DIMM. Many small channels is just how LPDDR works, as opposed to DDR which has one big chungus channel. Well DDR5 has now split it in two. The total number of traces is the same.
alpaca128 5y ago
This argument doesn't work with Apple. They built laptops that could literally just use 50% of their CPU because of insufficient cooling. Not too long ago they released a Macbook with a CPU cooler that doesn't even have direct contact with the CPU. And when LTT modded the cooler to fix it they realised the performance was still not better because the power delivery is insufficient as well. Also our PCs are not slow, modular or not. In many cases hardware is not the bottleneck.
- inb4_cancelled 5y ago
  Maybe that CPU cooler wasn't really a CPU cooler after all, if it didn't have direct contact with the CPU. Maybe the fan was more of a case fan and it simply ran air through the whole machine INCLUDING the CPU heatsink, which is AFAIK exactly how it worked.
webmobdev 5y ago
I have seen many comments parroting this line but none of you provide a source to back this assertion. Your claim that modular PC's RAM is slower is quite ignorant 'cos the bandwidth for the RAM bus has been consistently increasingly (currently DDR5) and remain the same whether it is soldered or modular.