13 ms·

Consider options like Framework laptops that let you actually own your hardware, and repair it.

by gameswithgo 5y ago

Milner08 5y ago
If only they were available in the UK
- darrenf 5y ago
  I'm in the UK too, finding myself unwilling to pay the new Mac prices and getting impatient for the framework. So, recently I've been considering a StarBook Mk V from https://starlabs.systems/ https://starlabs.systems/ They publish a full disassembly guide[0], so I'm reasonably sure the whole thing is repairable and upgradable if necessary. Lots of options for custom build at order time including coreboot. I'm a bit hesitant about a 1920x1080 display but otherwise extremely tempted. [0] https://support.starlabs.systems/kb/guides/starbook-mk-v-complete-disassembly-guide https://support.starlabs.systems/kb/guides/starbook-mk-v-com...
  - GordonS 5y ago
    I hadn't come across this laptop before, thanks for sharing! It looks almost perfect, but only having a single USB-C port is a disappointing choice :(
- fsflover 5y ago
  Perhaps you can consider this one instead: https://puri.sm/products/librem-14 https://puri.sm/products/librem-14.
arbuge 5y ago
Any PC will let you boot from an external drive if the internal drive fails (or even if it doesn't).
yumraj 5y ago
I for one will, if they were to make a 15" :)
hyperstar 5y ago
As soon as they make it possible to install free firmware such as coreboot.
- unethical_ban 5y ago
  We're comparing to Apple. Have fun freebooting that.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    It happened before: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc2NTU https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc2NTU Although, true, I suspect their modern stuff will never reach the same point.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    Then the M1 trounces this laptop in power and energy usage and there’s no contest.
GhettoComputers 5y ago
Silly idea in tech, the hardware will be long outdated before someone look for parts which are going to be overpriced, and the company might be gone forever. You can buy common business laptops such as thinkpad and swap the parts easily and cheaply. People aren’t swapping their 2011 i3 for a 2011 i7 if they care about performance; they’re getting an i5 from 2018. None of these swappable parts are unique aside from the processor (mine is soldered), I can replace all my parts and my laptop cost under $200.
- fartcannon 5y ago
  Thinkpads are owned by Lenovo, a known bad actor who installed, for example, rootkits on their own hardware.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    Never the thinkpad.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    If something comes preinstalled with Windows on it, it's going to be rootkitted anyways. There's also an argument to be made where we assume all commercial OSes are backdoored, but I think at this point playing the "muh security" card is a bit of a ruse. If you care about the stuff, you've already installed LTSC/Linux/BSD/Some special Windows distro.
    - throwaway2048 5y ago
      it wasn't about pre-installed windows software, it was about software embedded in UEFI that reinstalled itself on windows even with a clean fresh non-lenovo provided installation of windows.
  - thrashh 5y ago
    I give them a pass because their actions seem come from stupidity rather than maliciousness. Also while this was going on, they never did any of this to Thinkpads.
RKearney 5y ago
Looks like all their laptops use Intel processors? Do they let you control and disable Intel's management engine on that CPU? If not then I don't see how one really "owns" the hardware.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  Dell allows you to disable it (but it’s not really repairable) system76 and librem I think has it removed (but they’re not worth it for the specs).
  - for1nner 5y ago
    s76 blogged that they're working towards manu of their own laptop machines soon rather than the clevo stock, so that value might change soon. Then again, their tower is exorbitant, so...maybe not.
bastardoperator 5y ago
Assuming you want to do repair, I have no interest in repairing anything. In fact I'll happily part with my money to not have to deal with repairing stuff. Same applies to my car.
- alpaca128 5y ago
  Harder to repair products are more expensive to repair. This is the main reason Apple locks down everything so much and fights independent repair shops at every corner. Repair monopolies are profitable too. It doesn't matter whether you want to repair it or not, in the long term you can only lose when you don't care how hard it is to repair.
- justin_oaks 5y ago
  Do you have a threshold for this? I assume that if your laptop wasn't working and all you had to do was take a single screw out then you'd do it, rather than taking it to a repair shop or buy another. Or if the repair cost was extreme, but it was relatively easy to fix it yourself. Your point of view is valid of course. At the same time I believe many people don't have sufficient money to allow them the luxury of never repairing anything themselves. Having hardware that is repairable is rarely a problem for the end-user who doesn't want to repair it themselves. For users who DO want to repair it themselves, having hardware that's designed to be hard to repair is a huge burden.
  - pvarangot 5y ago
    > Do you have a threshold for this? Not OP but I have a really high threshold for this. I don't want to own a house and rent because of this.
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      Hire from taskrabbit. ;)
  - aeturnum 5y ago
    There's the old joke about a plumber to charges $100 to fix a hot water heater by hitting it once with a hammer. The home owner, incensed by such a bill for a simple action, demands the plumber justify it. The breakdown is: $1 hammer strike, $99 choosing correct location. Even a decade ago, the rewards for being able to repair computers were pretty substantial. Your computer was likely to have routine failures and you could probably save a lot of money doing piecemeal replacements. I think those things are still true for people who are trying to stay on the bleeding edge of computer hardware or use unusual setups, but for 95%+ of folks it is probably going to be a net loss. For most people performing most tasks, they are better off taking the "one-screw" computer into the shop because it would take them hours and hours to do the research figuring out if it really is a "one-screw" problem. If you are wrong you could seriously damage your hardware. In addition, because hardware that is sufficient for most purposes and inexpensive is widely available - there is very limited utility in learning those skills otherwise. If you want to learn about and repair computers as a hobby that's great! I do it and I enjoy it. But it's not a "smart financial decision."
jiveturkey 5y ago
You do not actually own a Framework, though. Unlike say a Raptor Talos II -- the only example I know of, albeit not a laptop. https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only/791 https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only...

Consider options like Framework laptops that let you actually own your hardware, and repair it.

Milner08 5y ago

If only they were available in the UK

darrenf 5y ago
I'm in the UK too, finding myself unwilling to pay the new Mac prices and getting impatient for the framework. So, recently I've been considering a StarBook Mk V from https://starlabs.systems/ https://starlabs.systems/ They publish a full disassembly guide[0], so I'm reasonably sure the whole thing is repairable and upgradable if necessary. Lots of options for custom build at order time including coreboot. I'm a bit hesitant about a 1920x1080 display but otherwise extremely tempted. [0] https://support.starlabs.systems/kb/guides/starbook-mk-v-complete-disassembly-guide https://support.starlabs.systems/kb/guides/starbook-mk-v-com...
- GordonS 5y ago
  I hadn't come across this laptop before, thanks for sharing! It looks almost perfect, but only having a single USB-C port is a disappointing choice :(
fsflover 5y ago
Perhaps you can consider this one instead: https://puri.sm/products/librem-14 https://puri.sm/products/librem-14.

arbuge 5y ago

Any PC will let you boot from an external drive if the internal drive fails (or even if it doesn't).

yumraj 5y ago

I for one will, if they were to make a 15" :)

hyperstar 5y ago

As soon as they make it possible to install free firmware such as coreboot.

unethical_ban 5y ago
We're comparing to Apple. Have fun freebooting that.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  It happened before: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc2NTU https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc2NTU Although, true, I suspect their modern stuff will never reach the same point.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  Then the M1 trounces this laptop in power and energy usage and there’s no contest.

GhettoComputers 5y ago

Silly idea in tech, the hardware will be long outdated before someone look for parts which are going to be overpriced, and the company might be gone forever. You can buy common business laptops such as thinkpad and swap the parts easily and cheaply. People aren’t swapping their 2011 i3 for a 2011 i7 if they care about performance; they’re getting an i5 from 2018. None of these swappable parts are unique aside from the processor (mine is soldered), I can replace all my parts and my laptop cost under $200.

fartcannon 5y ago
Thinkpads are owned by Lenovo, a known bad actor who installed, for example, rootkits on their own hardware.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  Never the thinkpad.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  If something comes preinstalled with Windows on it, it's going to be rootkitted anyways. There's also an argument to be made where we assume all commercial OSes are backdoored, but I think at this point playing the "muh security" card is a bit of a ruse. If you care about the stuff, you've already installed LTSC/Linux/BSD/Some special Windows distro.
  - throwaway2048 5y ago
    it wasn't about pre-installed windows software, it was about software embedded in UEFI that reinstalled itself on windows even with a clean fresh non-lenovo provided installation of windows.
- thrashh 5y ago
  I give them a pass because their actions seem come from stupidity rather than maliciousness. Also while this was going on, they never did any of this to Thinkpads.

RKearney 5y ago

Looks like all their laptops use Intel processors? Do they let you control and disable Intel's management engine on that CPU? If not then I don't see how one really "owns" the hardware.

GhettoComputers 5y ago
Dell allows you to disable it (but it’s not really repairable) system76 and librem I think has it removed (but they’re not worth it for the specs).
- for1nner 5y ago
  s76 blogged that they're working towards manu of their own laptop machines soon rather than the clevo stock, so that value might change soon. Then again, their tower is exorbitant, so...maybe not.

bastardoperator 5y ago

Assuming you want to do repair, I have no interest in repairing anything. In fact I'll happily part with my money to not have to deal with repairing stuff. Same applies to my car.

alpaca128 5y ago
Harder to repair products are more expensive to repair. This is the main reason Apple locks down everything so much and fights independent repair shops at every corner. Repair monopolies are profitable too. It doesn't matter whether you want to repair it or not, in the long term you can only lose when you don't care how hard it is to repair.
justin_oaks 5y ago
Do you have a threshold for this? I assume that if your laptop wasn't working and all you had to do was take a single screw out then you'd do it, rather than taking it to a repair shop or buy another. Or if the repair cost was extreme, but it was relatively easy to fix it yourself. Your point of view is valid of course. At the same time I believe many people don't have sufficient money to allow them the luxury of never repairing anything themselves. Having hardware that is repairable is rarely a problem for the end-user who doesn't want to repair it themselves. For users who DO want to repair it themselves, having hardware that's designed to be hard to repair is a huge burden.
- pvarangot 5y ago
  > Do you have a threshold for this? Not OP but I have a really high threshold for this. I don't want to own a house and rent because of this.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    Hire from taskrabbit. ;)
- aeturnum 5y ago
  There's the old joke about a plumber to charges $100 to fix a hot water heater by hitting it once with a hammer. The home owner, incensed by such a bill for a simple action, demands the plumber justify it. The breakdown is: $1 hammer strike, $99 choosing correct location. Even a decade ago, the rewards for being able to repair computers were pretty substantial. Your computer was likely to have routine failures and you could probably save a lot of money doing piecemeal replacements. I think those things are still true for people who are trying to stay on the bleeding edge of computer hardware or use unusual setups, but for 95%+ of folks it is probably going to be a net loss. For most people performing most tasks, they are better off taking the "one-screw" computer into the shop because it would take them hours and hours to do the research figuring out if it really is a "one-screw" problem. If you are wrong you could seriously damage your hardware. In addition, because hardware that is sufficient for most purposes and inexpensive is widely available - there is very limited utility in learning those skills otherwise. If you want to learn about and repair computers as a hobby that's great! I do it and I enjoy it. But it's not a "smart financial decision."

jiveturkey 5y ago

You do not actually own a Framework, though. Unlike say a Raptor Talos II -- the only example I know of, albeit not a laptop. https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only/791 https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only...