7 ms·

Coming from the Midwest I was brought up in a weirdly religious meritocracy where it was all about worship of "hard work". Unfortunately over time I'm realizing

Coming from the Midwest I was brought up in a weirdly religious meritocracy where it was all about worship of "hard work". Unfortunately over time I'm realizing that others perceptions of me are more important to career advancement over any of the actual work. So much more important. > But something feels off when we're justifying our simian prejudices It does, but in so many ways I feel like I'm trying to swim against the current if I continue down the "kick ass and take names" route vs. the "tread carefully and make sure everyone likes you" one. Even if you're successful at solving "Very Big Problem™" people tend to hate the wrecking ball who doesn't participate in 2:00pm office beers - even if they are getting shit done. Sorry to interject my own strong feelings here but work isn't about work as much as we like to think... It is my experience at every place that I've worked that SWEs that make the most friends, participate socially, and prioritize their own brand internally are the ones that move up. Practical example: instead of being the person who busts ass to optimize the core Postgres DB (by meticulously sussing out slow queries etc), be the person who starts the Friday book club. Although the former is of way more value to the tangible product, the latter is way more valuable to you socially. Your outward social narrative is more important than anything these days - this is just work culture anymore.

vianneychevalie 5y ago
Is the former of way more value to the tangible product, though? Where I work, the limiting factor in delivery is how good we are at retaining talent. Seniority is scarce, industry experience is valuable, and when we launch a book club... We keep people.
- gglitch 5y ago
  This is my experience as well. Prioritizing narrow contributions based on expertise over broad contributions based on a congenial and welcoming working environment is an expense that compounds over time.
- peterangular 5y ago
  In my experience both are valuable, especially when the work you're cranking through is your assigned work. I 100% agree with you but I would say that many places will turn the lack of participation in Friday beers, book club, and gokarting back at you as not being a good culture fit. I'm from Iowa where the work culture is much different - even for SWEs. I prefer it to this weird "culture fit" environment out here on the coast because I am paid to work, I am paid to be a software professional. I am most happy when I am working, and I am most happy when I am effectively making software that solves people's problems. If I want to stick around and focus on my assigned work I feel that should never turn around and bite me in the ass... It does consistently. I've made a huge shift in my career where I realize that I have to go against my own wishes and participate in the gokarting, beers, game nights, etc. You have to go - every time. You have to make as many friends there - every time. My career has gotten much easier the more social I've become. I just resent it because I want to do good work, and go home. I have a family god dammit.
  - drewcoo 5y ago
    I grew up in the midwest and have also worked software on both coasts. They are all different cultures, work and otherwise. I expect the emergence of remote, distributed work to change that in the same way that mass media affected regional dialects.
  - gglitch 5y ago
    I can identify; but the farther I go in my career, the more I see socializing as part of the actual work--i.e., not peripheral or ancillary to it, but as an important part of the success of the company. My mentor says that what used to be called knowledge work should more properly be called relationship work, and I see it more with every year. We used to be Taylorist cogs in a machine, but that's not what work is anymore. At least not anywhere where groups of people have to solve hard problems and make difficult decisions up and down the ladder of abstraction.
scott_w 5y ago
Just a small thing here: you wrapped up two things in one sentence. > people tend to hate the wrecking ball who doesn't participate in 2:00pm office beers The former (wrecking ball), people will tend to hate. The latter (beers), people should be fine with. I speak from experience on this. Find out why people perceive you as a wrecking ball and change your behaviour to not actively antagonise your colleagues. If you do this and it’s not drinking beer in the office that’s holding you back, I’d seriously look for alternative employment. The good news is you’ll be infinitely more employable as a result.
- peterangular 5y ago
  So the wrecking ball thing is just a turn-of-phrase that means "someone who knocks it down" - ie: the person getting it done. It's not necessarily meant as a negative nor derogatory term, it's the person who shows up on-time to work and is nose-down and very effective. Or at least culturally, that's how I meant it and what it meant growing up. To scratch at it, yeah I'm painting myself here a bit because I'm very annoyed at having to socialize in an office vs. just being able to show up and work. 100% I would rather work through my afternoons than go do team building activities - those things have been more about weird in-group "culture fit" crap vs. growing closer to my coworkers. Going from being a professional in Iowa where this didn't happen as much to California where "tech-bro" is a thing... well let's just say way more weird socializing happens out here. > If you do this and it’s not drinking beer in the office that’s holding you back, I’d seriously look for alternative employment. The good news is you’ll be infinitely more employable as a result. Exactly - and that's exactly what I did in the anecdotal situation I outlined above. I promise you though, many places are like this and you will ostracize yourself if you make the same mistakes I did. Keeping your nose down while everyone else is making their buddies is a very bad idea. Apparently, I'm paid to drink, go play minigolf, and race gokarts - sure this sounds like it's awesome to a lot of folks but for this middle aged engineer I just want to finish the work and go home. I have a damn family.
  - michaelt 5y ago
    I've got to say, I've never heard "wrecking ball" used as a positive description before.
Blackstone4 5y ago
Yes because some people believe that kicking ass and taking names means that one can afford to be rude or antisocial because the mission takes priority. Utimately these very same people sometimes do not take the time to listen to other around and spend time working on the wrong issues or going down rabbit holes because their vision is superior to those around them...with a group it is often more important for everyone to be rowing in roughly the same direction...even if its off, its better than people rowing in different directions.
- peterangular 5y ago
  People keep conflating my example with non-assigned work, ie: "spend time working on the wrong issues or going down rabbit holes because their vision is superior to those around them" Clearly this would be a problem, and I understand why people are conflating it with what I am describing because it is both related and relatable. But, I'm talking about doing your assigned work - maybe calling out the specific Postgres example is why everyone assumes it's just some jackass running off on their own... in the hypothetical I posited I did not mean this. I also did not mean to paint the hypothetical worker staying back at the office as rude/a jackass... Truly - there are many people who are only interested in keeping their nose down 100% focused on what work is assigned to them vs. the amorphous "culture fit" socializing. Hell - lots of them for fully rational reasons like social anxiety. Many people want to come to work to work, and then go home.
  - Blackstone4 5y ago
    I dont really understand how your comments refute what I wrote...I am saying that the ability to communicate and get on with others (if you want to call it emotional intelligence) is important in helping people work together. Therefore being more effective as a team.
  - SirSourdough 5y ago
    I think painting the contrast: "kick ass and take names" route vs. the "tread carefully and make sure everyone likes you" combined with the wrecking ball idea just paints a picture of someone who is grinding to get their work done but not worried about their relationships with or the collateral damage they cause for their coworkers. Reading your other comments I don't think it was your intent, just the way it came off to me at first blush.
throwaway211102 5y ago
folkhack and other people who share this view, I would be happy to introduce ourselves and perhaps work with each other in the future My email is in my profile. I'm using a throwaway to not associate my email to my usual username.
Jetrel 5y ago
Coming from the midwest as well, I've also got a take on it: The ideal political capital is being the person who saves other people from embarrassing "good faith" screwups. Cynically, bad-faith ones (where they're being derelict or doing something sketchy) on their part can give you some blackmail, but there's a related concept that happens, that I don't really have a name for (whitemail?), where someone just makes an "honest mistake" where they're working in good faith and working hard, but things just go wrong. And you help them out, and guard their reputation. You get stuff like that on your ledger, where you've quietly saved their ass in a tough spot, and it's solid gold. If you get that snowballing, you can build a "band of brothers" (or some other sappy military meme). It becomes a great environment to work in because you know people have your back, and are defending you; not merely your reputation, but also are defending (through maintenance) the actual quality of your material work. Machiavelli had it backwards with his classic quote of "it is better to be feared than to be loved" — being loved is what makes it possible for others to fear you. Love is genuine loyalty. Loyalty is genuine political power. And in most organizations, that's really the only thing that makes people fear.

vianneychevalie 5y ago

Is the former of way more value to the tangible product, though? Where I work, the limiting factor in delivery is how good we are at retaining talent. Seniority is scarce, industry experience is valuable, and when we launch a book club... We keep people.

gglitch 5y ago
This is my experience as well. Prioritizing narrow contributions based on expertise over broad contributions based on a congenial and welcoming working environment is an expense that compounds over time.
peterangular 5y ago
In my experience both are valuable, especially when the work you're cranking through is your assigned work. I 100% agree with you but I would say that many places will turn the lack of participation in Friday beers, book club, and gokarting back at you as not being a good culture fit. I'm from Iowa where the work culture is much different - even for SWEs. I prefer it to this weird "culture fit" environment out here on the coast because I am paid to work, I am paid to be a software professional. I am most happy when I am working, and I am most happy when I am effectively making software that solves people's problems. If I want to stick around and focus on my assigned work I feel that should never turn around and bite me in the ass... It does consistently. I've made a huge shift in my career where I realize that I have to go against my own wishes and participate in the gokarting, beers, game nights, etc. You have to go - every time. You have to make as many friends there - every time. My career has gotten much easier the more social I've become. I just resent it because I want to do good work, and go home. I have a family god dammit.
- drewcoo 5y ago
  I grew up in the midwest and have also worked software on both coasts. They are all different cultures, work and otherwise. I expect the emergence of remote, distributed work to change that in the same way that mass media affected regional dialects.
- gglitch 5y ago
  I can identify; but the farther I go in my career, the more I see socializing as part of the actual work--i.e., not peripheral or ancillary to it, but as an important part of the success of the company. My mentor says that what used to be called knowledge work should more properly be called relationship work, and I see it more with every year. We used to be Taylorist cogs in a machine, but that's not what work is anymore. At least not anywhere where groups of people have to solve hard problems and make difficult decisions up and down the ladder of abstraction.

scott_w 5y ago

Just a small thing here: you wrapped up two things in one sentence. > people tend to hate the wrecking ball who doesn't participate in 2:00pm office beers The former (wrecking ball), people will tend to hate. The latter (beers), people should be fine with. I speak from experience on this. Find out why people perceive you as a wrecking ball and change your behaviour to not actively antagonise your colleagues. If you do this and it’s not drinking beer in the office that’s holding you back, I’d seriously look for alternative employment. The good news is you’ll be infinitely more employable as a result.

peterangular 5y ago
So the wrecking ball thing is just a turn-of-phrase that means "someone who knocks it down" - ie: the person getting it done. It's not necessarily meant as a negative nor derogatory term, it's the person who shows up on-time to work and is nose-down and very effective. Or at least culturally, that's how I meant it and what it meant growing up. To scratch at it, yeah I'm painting myself here a bit because I'm very annoyed at having to socialize in an office vs. just being able to show up and work. 100% I would rather work through my afternoons than go do team building activities - those things have been more about weird in-group "culture fit" crap vs. growing closer to my coworkers. Going from being a professional in Iowa where this didn't happen as much to California where "tech-bro" is a thing... well let's just say way more weird socializing happens out here. > If you do this and it’s not drinking beer in the office that’s holding you back, I’d seriously look for alternative employment. The good news is you’ll be infinitely more employable as a result. Exactly - and that's exactly what I did in the anecdotal situation I outlined above. I promise you though, many places are like this and you will ostracize yourself if you make the same mistakes I did. Keeping your nose down while everyone else is making their buddies is a very bad idea. Apparently, I'm paid to drink, go play minigolf, and race gokarts - sure this sounds like it's awesome to a lot of folks but for this middle aged engineer I just want to finish the work and go home. I have a damn family.
- michaelt 5y ago
  I've got to say, I've never heard "wrecking ball" used as a positive description before.

Blackstone4 5y ago

Yes because some people believe that kicking ass and taking names means that one can afford to be rude or antisocial because the mission takes priority. Utimately these very same people sometimes do not take the time to listen to other around and spend time working on the wrong issues or going down rabbit holes because their vision is superior to those around them...with a group it is often more important for everyone to be rowing in roughly the same direction...even if its off, its better than people rowing in different directions.

peterangular 5y ago
People keep conflating my example with non-assigned work, ie: "spend time working on the wrong issues or going down rabbit holes because their vision is superior to those around them" Clearly this would be a problem, and I understand why people are conflating it with what I am describing because it is both related and relatable. But, I'm talking about doing your assigned work - maybe calling out the specific Postgres example is why everyone assumes it's just some jackass running off on their own... in the hypothetical I posited I did not mean this. I also did not mean to paint the hypothetical worker staying back at the office as rude/a jackass... Truly - there are many people who are only interested in keeping their nose down 100% focused on what work is assigned to them vs. the amorphous "culture fit" socializing. Hell - lots of them for fully rational reasons like social anxiety. Many people want to come to work to work, and then go home.
- Blackstone4 5y ago
  I dont really understand how your comments refute what I wrote...I am saying that the ability to communicate and get on with others (if you want to call it emotional intelligence) is important in helping people work together. Therefore being more effective as a team.
- SirSourdough 5y ago
  I think painting the contrast: "kick ass and take names" route vs. the "tread carefully and make sure everyone likes you" combined with the wrecking ball idea just paints a picture of someone who is grinding to get their work done but not worried about their relationships with or the collateral damage they cause for their coworkers. Reading your other comments I don't think it was your intent, just the way it came off to me at first blush.

throwaway211102 5y ago

folkhack and other people who share this view, I would be happy to introduce ourselves and perhaps work with each other in the future My email is in my profile. I'm using a throwaway to not associate my email to my usual username.

Jetrel 5y ago

Coming from the midwest as well, I've also got a take on it: The ideal political capital is being the person who saves other people from embarrassing "good faith" screwups. Cynically, bad-faith ones (where they're being derelict or doing something sketchy) on their part can give you some blackmail, but there's a related concept that happens, that I don't really have a name for (whitemail?), where someone just makes an "honest mistake" where they're working in good faith and working hard, but things just go wrong. And you help them out, and guard their reputation. You get stuff like that on your ledger, where you've quietly saved their ass in a tough spot, and it's solid gold. If you get that snowballing, you can build a "band of brothers" (or some other sappy military meme). It becomes a great environment to work in because you know people have your back, and are defending you; not merely your reputation, but also are defending (through maintenance) the actual quality of your material work. Machiavelli had it backwards with his classic quote of "it is better to be feared than to be loved" — being loved is what makes it possible for others to fear you. Love is genuine loyalty. Loyalty is genuine political power. And in most organizations, that's really the only thing that makes people fear.