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"proudly written in Rust" ... what is it with this Rust guys? lol but locks cool. are there actual screenshot available? the notes editor looks fun. loved the

"proudly written in Rust" ... what is it with this Rust guys? lol but locks cool. are there actual screenshot available? the notes editor looks fun. loved the one from fruity loops A LOT (awesome profram)

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tialaramex 5y ago
One nice thing about Rust is that there's an excellent chance you can actually modify this code. That's enormously important for anybody who has even modest programming skills. For Free Software projects it's often under-estimated how much contribution you can get from the long tail of people who've got one small change they'd like to make. IF they can make the change. Otherwise you miss out. Let's give two extreme examples to calibrate, the first one is real, the second for reasons that will become obvious is hypothetical: 1. My friend Chris wanted to do a trivial thing in Gimp, but like, a lot of times. So, he finds out how to write scripts that run inside Gimp, he writes a script, it works immediately - problem solved, might as well mail it off in case anybody else finds it useful. Last time I looked, his script is out-of-the-box in Gimp. 2. Back in 2016 if you wrote a small non-bug-fix change for Apache OpenOffice, you needed to build the full C++ application. Then you could send patches over to their dev team. If you'd done this, those patches still aren't in a shipping product, the next non-bug-fix release AOO 4.2 was at the time scheduled for "soon" hopefully 2017. Last time I looked they were lamenting that "We have missed our goal on going into the beta in 2019" but still hadn't shipped anything.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
  Regarding #2, everyone has essentially moved over to LibreOffice several years ago, thanks to Oracle's shenanigans. I think Oracle eventually walked back whatever it was doing that made everyone fork and switch over, but by then it was too late. It seems like the only reason OpenOffice has continued its zombie-like path forward over the past few years is because of name recognition.
  - tialaramex 5y ago
    Yes. I do know this (in 2016 I recommended that OpenOffice should get 4.2 out the door pronto or accept that they are done and should gracefully shut down the project).
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  > One nice thing about Rust is that there's an excellent chance you can actually modify this code. Chance of a random user being able to modify compilable code inside a DAW: essentially zero. Effect of language choice: essentially zero. Real time code; threads; pure "classic" MVC; custom widgets everywhere; non-standard keybinding mechanisms; topological sorting; insanely complex effects of latency on the meaning of "time"; temporal representation ... these are just a few of the major conceptual features someone tends to need to understand to go delving around inside a DAW. Things are roughly as complex as a modern web browser, except plus the realtime component. I wrote some thoughts down (and gots lots of comments) regarding open source vs. scripting here: https://discourse.ardour.org/t/is-open-source-a-diversion-from-what-users-really-want/102665 https://discourse.ardour.org/t/is-open-source-a-diversion-fr...
  - tialaramex 5y ago
    I guess I have to disagree Paul, even though of course you're the one with practical experience in this specific niche since I didn't write a DAW from scratch. Since you compared it to a web browser maybe it's instructive to remember that a big reason Rust had initial traction was that Mozilla had tried, and failed more than once to make key improvements to some of the browser's thorniest concurrent code in C++ but using Rust made this practical at last. C++ is horrible and I think you're under-estimating just how much difference that makes in this scenario for something like Ardour.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      The thing is, something like Ardour doesn't need "key improvements to some of [our] thorniest concurrent code in C++". We're in good shape there (perhaps because the requirement that most of our concurrent code has to fit in with RT requirements pushed us to do better design work there). We need to people more than anything to do workflow stuff (mostly GUI). Some years ago, I did several talks where I touted the idea that us adding a web interface to Ardour, so the generation raised on the idea that programming means HTML+CSS+JS could go to town and do new cool things (or at least, create new "cool" UIs). We've failed/chosen not to publicize the fact that we have a web interface now, but my position on this has changed. I was wrong about the web interface. I just don't think we're going to get significant numbers of new contributors no matter what language or development environment they could use. We have on the order of 100 contributors already, and I think that if we ever got to 200, it would be a miracle. Even 25 new contributors would be a change in our developer resources that would be game-changing.
chillingeffect 5y ago
Most technical developments only unconsciously reflect their social contexts. And in most cases those are the greater needs of corporations. E.g. C and Javascript. Rust is deliberate about tying its social context to its technical development. Much like open source, esp.the Linux kernel, used the social contract of legal licenses and information transmission to enable a cooperative world, except Rust foregrounds as a social movement and demands traction through technical superiority. It's an innovator in community standards. "You want quality code? You'll have to abide by our social rules." Its founders have read some philosophy. Similar to how every Linux install means less corporate power and less invasion of privacy, every Rust conquest such as this represents a threat to dissolve the entrenched hegemony of competition and individualism. See: https://www.rust-lang.org/policies/code-of-conduct https://www.rust-lang.org/policies/code-of-conduct
- tayistay 5y ago
  Can you ELI5 how the development of, say, C, reflects the needs of corporations? Does every linux install mean less corporate power when, e.g. AWS runs on linux? Can you explain what the rust code of conduct (which AFAICT can be summarized as "please be nice") has to do with competition and individualism? Can't I still be a competitive individual without being rude?
  - chillingeffect 5y ago
    > Can you ELI5 how the development of, say, C, reflects the needs of corporations? Sure, thanks for being interested. Note that I'm not agreeing or disapproving with Rust or with you. It's merely that I'm responding to why someone asked why the Rust community feels compelled to proclaim these types of territorial expansions and why most people don't get it. I don't have time to ELY5, but you can start with C's inception at corporate-government behemoth AT&T and follow it to e.g. here: https://isocpp.org/wiki/faq/big-picture#standardization-committee https://isocpp.org/wiki/faq/big-picture#standardization-comm... >"Naturally, many (but not all) of these volunteers have day jobs focused on C++: They include compiler writers, tool builders, library writers, application builders, researchers, book authors, consultants, test-suite builders, and more. >Here is a very-partial list of some major organizations involved: Adobe, Apple, Boost, Bloomberg, EDG, Google, HP, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Oracle, Red Hat." Contrast that with, say the Arduino/maker movement... when was the last time they proposed language and standard changes? Although both communities use C, one of them is blinking LEDs in young couples' living rooms and the other is flying helicopters to protect borders which requires massive investment and coordination across hostile, competitive, captialized entities. > Does every linux install mean less corporate power when, e.g. AWS runs on linux? No, not always absolutely everything is always completely absolute all the time, forever, but you can contrast AWS running Linux with AWS running Windows and see development they do under e.g. GPL license must be shared back to the community. > Can you explain what the rust code of conduct (which AFAICT can be summarized as "please be nice") has to do with competition and individualism? Can't I still be a competitive individual without being rude? It's helpful to them when outsiders glean superficial meanings from the conduct such as that. No offense: We all want to feel warm and fuzzy. It's what they don't say. Take a closer look: > Everyone is invited to discuss the proposal, to work toward a shared understanding of the tradeoffs. Though sometimes arduous, this community deliberation is Rust’s secret sauce for quality. Their values prevent geniuses like Stallman from going rogue and embarrassing them socially. This is their tradeoff for the excluding contributions of embarrassing wizards and why it's so valuable for them to capture technical territory. > We will exclude you from interaction if you insult, demean or harass anyone. They will accept an inferior development if it means they can keep their reputation pure. > Can't I still be a competitive individual without being rude? Yes you can, but that's the contrapositive of their Code. If you are rude, your competitive contributions are excluded. So it's not "please be nice." It's "if you're not nice, you're not a part of us." Since this makes it harder to get the best people, it's a victory when they're able to pull of large technical feats.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tialaramex 5y ago

One nice thing about Rust is that there's an excellent chance you can actually modify this code. That's enormously important for anybody who has even modest programming skills. For Free Software projects it's often under-estimated how much contribution you can get from the long tail of people who've got one small change they'd like to make. IF they can make the change. Otherwise you miss out. Let's give two extreme examples to calibrate, the first one is real, the second for reasons that will become obvious is hypothetical: 1. My friend Chris wanted to do a trivial thing in Gimp, but like, a lot of times. So, he finds out how to write scripts that run inside Gimp, he writes a script, it works immediately - problem solved, might as well mail it off in case anybody else finds it useful. Last time I looked, his script is out-of-the-box in Gimp. 2. Back in 2016 if you wrote a small non-bug-fix change for Apache OpenOffice, you needed to build the full C++ application. Then you could send patches over to their dev team. If you'd done this, those patches still aren't in a shipping product, the next non-bug-fix release AOO 4.2 was at the time scheduled for "soon" hopefully 2017. Last time I looked they were lamenting that "We have missed our goal on going into the beta in 2019" but still hadn't shipped anything.

SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
Regarding #2, everyone has essentially moved over to LibreOffice several years ago, thanks to Oracle's shenanigans. I think Oracle eventually walked back whatever it was doing that made everyone fork and switch over, but by then it was too late. It seems like the only reason OpenOffice has continued its zombie-like path forward over the past few years is because of name recognition.
- tialaramex 5y ago
  Yes. I do know this (in 2016 I recommended that OpenOffice should get 4.2 out the door pronto or accept that they are done and should gracefully shut down the project).
PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
> One nice thing about Rust is that there's an excellent chance you can actually modify this code. Chance of a random user being able to modify compilable code inside a DAW: essentially zero. Effect of language choice: essentially zero. Real time code; threads; pure "classic" MVC; custom widgets everywhere; non-standard keybinding mechanisms; topological sorting; insanely complex effects of latency on the meaning of "time"; temporal representation ... these are just a few of the major conceptual features someone tends to need to understand to go delving around inside a DAW. Things are roughly as complex as a modern web browser, except plus the realtime component. I wrote some thoughts down (and gots lots of comments) regarding open source vs. scripting here: https://discourse.ardour.org/t/is-open-source-a-diversion-from-what-users-really-want/102665 https://discourse.ardour.org/t/is-open-source-a-diversion-fr...
- tialaramex 5y ago
  I guess I have to disagree Paul, even though of course you're the one with practical experience in this specific niche since I didn't write a DAW from scratch. Since you compared it to a web browser maybe it's instructive to remember that a big reason Rust had initial traction was that Mozilla had tried, and failed more than once to make key improvements to some of the browser's thorniest concurrent code in C++ but using Rust made this practical at last. C++ is horrible and I think you're under-estimating just how much difference that makes in this scenario for something like Ardour.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    The thing is, something like Ardour doesn't need "key improvements to some of [our] thorniest concurrent code in C++". We're in good shape there (perhaps because the requirement that most of our concurrent code has to fit in with RT requirements pushed us to do better design work there). We need to people more than anything to do workflow stuff (mostly GUI). Some years ago, I did several talks where I touted the idea that us adding a web interface to Ardour, so the generation raised on the idea that programming means HTML+CSS+JS could go to town and do new cool things (or at least, create new "cool" UIs). We've failed/chosen not to publicize the fact that we have a web interface now, but my position on this has changed. I was wrong about the web interface. I just don't think we're going to get significant numbers of new contributors no matter what language or development environment they could use. We have on the order of 100 contributors already, and I think that if we ever got to 200, it would be a miracle. Even 25 new contributors would be a change in our developer resources that would be game-changing.

chillingeffect 5y ago

Most technical developments only unconsciously reflect their social contexts. And in most cases those are the greater needs of corporations. E.g. C and Javascript. Rust is deliberate about tying its social context to its technical development. Much like open source, esp.the Linux kernel, used the social contract of legal licenses and information transmission to enable a cooperative world, except Rust foregrounds as a social movement and demands traction through technical superiority. It's an innovator in community standards. "You want quality code? You'll have to abide by our social rules." Its founders have read some philosophy. Similar to how every Linux install means less corporate power and less invasion of privacy, every Rust conquest such as this represents a threat to dissolve the entrenched hegemony of competition and individualism. See: https://www.rust-lang.org/policies/code-of-conduct https://www.rust-lang.org/policies/code-of-conduct

tayistay 5y ago
Can you ELI5 how the development of, say, C, reflects the needs of corporations? Does every linux install mean less corporate power when, e.g. AWS runs on linux? Can you explain what the rust code of conduct (which AFAICT can be summarized as "please be nice") has to do with competition and individualism? Can't I still be a competitive individual without being rude?
- chillingeffect 5y ago
  > Can you ELI5 how the development of, say, C, reflects the needs of corporations? Sure, thanks for being interested. Note that I'm not agreeing or disapproving with Rust or with you. It's merely that I'm responding to why someone asked why the Rust community feels compelled to proclaim these types of territorial expansions and why most people don't get it. I don't have time to ELY5, but you can start with C's inception at corporate-government behemoth AT&T and follow it to e.g. here: https://isocpp.org/wiki/faq/big-picture#standardization-committee https://isocpp.org/wiki/faq/big-picture#standardization-comm... >"Naturally, many (but not all) of these volunteers have day jobs focused on C++: They include compiler writers, tool builders, library writers, application builders, researchers, book authors, consultants, test-suite builders, and more. >Here is a very-partial list of some major organizations involved: Adobe, Apple, Boost, Bloomberg, EDG, Google, HP, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Oracle, Red Hat." Contrast that with, say the Arduino/maker movement... when was the last time they proposed language and standard changes? Although both communities use C, one of them is blinking LEDs in young couples' living rooms and the other is flying helicopters to protect borders which requires massive investment and coordination across hostile, competitive, captialized entities. > Does every linux install mean less corporate power when, e.g. AWS runs on linux? No, not always absolutely everything is always completely absolute all the time, forever, but you can contrast AWS running Linux with AWS running Windows and see development they do under e.g. GPL license must be shared back to the community. > Can you explain what the rust code of conduct (which AFAICT can be summarized as "please be nice") has to do with competition and individualism? Can't I still be a competitive individual without being rude? It's helpful to them when outsiders glean superficial meanings from the conduct such as that. No offense: We all want to feel warm and fuzzy. It's what they don't say. Take a closer look: > Everyone is invited to discuss the proposal, to work toward a shared understanding of the tradeoffs. Though sometimes arduous, this community deliberation is Rust’s secret sauce for quality. Their values prevent geniuses like Stallman from going rogue and embarrassing them socially. This is their tradeoff for the excluding contributions of embarrassing wizards and why it's so valuable for them to capture technical territory. > We will exclude you from interaction if you insult, demean or harass anyone. They will accept an inferior development if it means they can keep their reputation pure. > Can't I still be a competitive individual without being rude? Yes you can, but that's the contrapositive of their Code. If you are rude, your competitive contributions are excluded. So it's not "please be nice." It's "if you're not nice, you're not a part of us." Since this makes it harder to get the best people, it's a victory when they're able to pull of large technical feats.