6 ms·

This list is not super “convincing”: Water, pea protein*, expeller-pressed canola oil, refined coconut oil, rice protein, natural flavors, dried yeast, cocoa bu

This list is not super “convincing”: Water, pea protein*, expeller-pressed canola oil, refined coconut oil, rice protein, natural flavors, dried yeast, cocoa butter, methylcellulose, and less than 1% of potato starch, salt, potassium chloride, beet juice color, apple extract, pomegranate concentrate, sunflower lecithin, vinegar, lemon juice concentrate, vitamins and minerals (zinc sulfate, niacinamide [vitamin B3], pyridoxine hydrochloride [vitamin B6], cyanocobalamin [vitamin B12], calcium pantothenate). Why is there a laxative in my fake meat? “100% free range grass feed beef” is a lot more convincing.

phonypc 5y ago
Do you take issue with any particular ingredients, or is the implication just "long list bad"? What are you calling a laxative?
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  Yes, I am not interested in a meat flavored veggie protein shake that is made of seed oils, costs more and is less nutritious. It’s disgusting. I don’t know who the market for it is, I’d sooner eat tofu than overpriced corporate crap with heavy processing and industrial refining. What is the benefit? Who buys this? People that don’t like meat but want to feel good about eating junk food that’s vegan and is a poor imitation of it?
  - phonypc 5y ago
    If the issue is seed oils, then by all means make that case. There are arguably convincing points to be made in that area. Implied outrage at long ingredient lists is not constructive.
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      I didn’t post his list. Implying an ingredient which is made of overpriced heavily industrially processed mixtures of grain and beans mixed with flavorings and chemicals since the underlying implications is that plant based foods suck and need corporations to heavily process them until it’s bearable to eat despite its worst nutrition and higher cost than mean isn’t more constructive if you’re trying to convince others to eat non meat products.
      - cheese_goddess 5y ago
        Right? It's like "I want to start eating less meat". "OK, here's something that sorta kinda looks and tastes like burger or nuggets". "No, but I want to start eating vegetables". "Yeah, yeah, don't worry, this thing is made of vegetables". So, prior to the veggie burgers and soy nuggets you were hooked on low quality meats in beef burgers and chicken nuggets, and now you are to remain hooked on low quality vegetables in bean burgers and soy nuggets. Or rather, you are to remain hooked on the products of the same industry that has been destroying the planet and the developed world's diets for generations. And suddendly, the products of this same industry are not just not junk food anymore, they are healthy alternatives that don't harm the environment!
  - Melting_Harps 5y ago
    > I don’t know who the market for it is People who think their is a demographic for only binary choices when it comes to diet it seems; I'm convinced the SV bubble thinking applies here. I highly recommend the series 'What you will eat next' [0] wherein they actually visit and prepare the meats, to their satisfaction. But honestly I grew up eating tofu (it's delicious when prepared correctly as it will take the flavour of anything you make) and if you think using small amounts of animal protein (pork in this case) alongside with tofu to make Mapo Tofu isn't a better solution than these absurdly wasteful proposed solutions: I'm talking about you. The degree they go to over-complicate and recreate a poor solution that we've been using for 10,000+ years (Agriculture) but have only recently fucked up--conventional chemical, and feed lot, factory based farming--is the epitome of clutching at straws to find a solution to a problem. People bemoan things like Bitcoins POW energy intensity when plant based meats have probably have a larger carbon footprint than that and they were started around the same time simply because of the need for so many inputs and the likely chance they are derived from those very same sources the decry. In short, I think renewable Ag is quite honestly the most effective solution to climate change and restoring balance to the damage we have collectively done the Earth by a significant margin--but by no means should be the only one--because of the scale and scope of it's immense size: it's the largest Industry, the FOREX is only larger because it includes commodity trading from Ag and currency exchange from within it. Food education is perhaps the most vital thing we can do when trying to confront this solution with any sanity, something I think is entirely lost when what is required comes up because it's so visceral: we've spent most of our time as a species just trying to have enough calories to survive, we've gone to war for salt to preserve what little food we had so it's an expected response. But if we do not make progress in this domain and create solutions I sincerely think it will lead to the dystopia we've heard from water wars (the more serious issue in my view). > Who buys this? People that don’t like meat but want to feel good about eating junk food that’s vegan and is a poor imitation of it? Sadly, yes, I cooked professionally and my career took me to kitchens in the US and in Europe (alongside my horticulture apprenticeship in Biodynamic Ag) and I even spent time at a renown Vegetarian and Vegan restaurant in the US, and the lengths we went to make 'hamburgers' or 'crab cakes' that were kind of like them but not really was absurd! The amount of oils and other inputs you need for this to be even remotely resemble the texture of the real thing is so absurd, they act as binders or fillers to satiate what is otherwise a starving person. There isn't enough time to discuss this topic in it's entirety, but yes... this was my conclusion and while I've worked in more acclaimed and busier kitchens since then I was outright shocked at was at best misguided idealism, or more often, outright blatant self-righteous ignorance from the end consumer: and this was from someone who dedicated a significant portion of my adult life to finding viable ways to lower meat consumption add increase vegetable consumption. Everything changed when one of regulars had a stroke in the dining room one day during service and I simply could not participate in the operation any longer--a cause I'd later find out after I left was unrelated as he was an older professor from the nearby university but he ate most of his meals at our restaurant for years. He and an older couple (who ordered the same meal everyday) came for dinner service 5-6 days a week at the same time. I think this is simply chemical corps doing the VC model of diversifying their portfolio to fund things that may have a slight chance at playing a part in the inevitable decoupling from this model. They're flush with cash from subsidies, bailouts, corporate welfare and have the media channels and access to influencers: so what are a few billions in R/D that are using their pre-existing reagents, proteins or binders if they can shoe-horn their products into fastfood chains and tell everyone they are saving the World doing it? If they're successful they'll make their margins competitive from IP after creating the demand and make it up over a few years (decades?) with 'strategic' dividends as leaders in the newly established plant-based meat Industry. 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbyoZ2KetYo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbyoZ2KetYo
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- rubidium 5y ago
  https://www.drugs.com/mtm/methylcellulose.html https://www.drugs.com/mtm/methylcellulose.html
ben_w 5y ago
I think I’ve made vegan chilli with a similar length list of ingredients. Which ones are laxatives?
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  False equivalence. Using 5 different beans is different from using something like HFCS, hexane refined hydrogenated rapeseed oil, and industrially separated rice protein and pea protein, unless you think we should equate ingredients such as quinoa and benzoic acid.
  - phonypc 5y ago
    Expeller-pressed canola oil is explicitly not "hexane refined hydrogenated rapeseed oil". Also no HFCS.
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      These are examples of products that are vegan and are commonly found in vegan food. So do you equate the industrial separating of plant protein from grains as the same as a white northern bean?
      - phonypc 5y ago
        No, they aren't equivalent. But that's not an argument against eating isolated plant proteins.
        GhettoComputers 5y ago
        Yes it is. It is a legitimate reason against eating heavily processed food including plant proteins, and you have made zero legitimate arguement against it, saying no its not is an invalid point.
        phonypc 5y ago

phonypc 5y ago

Do you take issue with any particular ingredients, or is the implication just "long list bad"? What are you calling a laxative?

GhettoComputers 5y ago
Yes, I am not interested in a meat flavored veggie protein shake that is made of seed oils, costs more and is less nutritious. It’s disgusting. I don’t know who the market for it is, I’d sooner eat tofu than overpriced corporate crap with heavy processing and industrial refining. What is the benefit? Who buys this? People that don’t like meat but want to feel good about eating junk food that’s vegan and is a poor imitation of it?
- phonypc 5y ago
  If the issue is seed oils, then by all means make that case. There are arguably convincing points to be made in that area. Implied outrage at long ingredient lists is not constructive.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    I didn’t post his list. Implying an ingredient which is made of overpriced heavily industrially processed mixtures of grain and beans mixed with flavorings and chemicals since the underlying implications is that plant based foods suck and need corporations to heavily process them until it’s bearable to eat despite its worst nutrition and higher cost than mean isn’t more constructive if you’re trying to convince others to eat non meat products.
    - cheese_goddess 5y ago
      Right? It's like "I want to start eating less meat". "OK, here's something that sorta kinda looks and tastes like burger or nuggets". "No, but I want to start eating vegetables". "Yeah, yeah, don't worry, this thing is made of vegetables". So, prior to the veggie burgers and soy nuggets you were hooked on low quality meats in beef burgers and chicken nuggets, and now you are to remain hooked on low quality vegetables in bean burgers and soy nuggets. Or rather, you are to remain hooked on the products of the same industry that has been destroying the planet and the developed world's diets for generations. And suddendly, the products of this same industry are not just not junk food anymore, they are healthy alternatives that don't harm the environment!
- Melting_Harps 5y ago
  > I don’t know who the market for it is People who think their is a demographic for only binary choices when it comes to diet it seems; I'm convinced the SV bubble thinking applies here. I highly recommend the series 'What you will eat next' [0] wherein they actually visit and prepare the meats, to their satisfaction. But honestly I grew up eating tofu (it's delicious when prepared correctly as it will take the flavour of anything you make) and if you think using small amounts of animal protein (pork in this case) alongside with tofu to make Mapo Tofu isn't a better solution than these absurdly wasteful proposed solutions: I'm talking about you. The degree they go to over-complicate and recreate a poor solution that we've been using for 10,000+ years (Agriculture) but have only recently fucked up--conventional chemical, and feed lot, factory based farming--is the epitome of clutching at straws to find a solution to a problem. People bemoan things like Bitcoins POW energy intensity when plant based meats have probably have a larger carbon footprint than that and they were started around the same time simply because of the need for so many inputs and the likely chance they are derived from those very same sources the decry. In short, I think renewable Ag is quite honestly the most effective solution to climate change and restoring balance to the damage we have collectively done the Earth by a significant margin--but by no means should be the only one--because of the scale and scope of it's immense size: it's the largest Industry, the FOREX is only larger because it includes commodity trading from Ag and currency exchange from within it. Food education is perhaps the most vital thing we can do when trying to confront this solution with any sanity, something I think is entirely lost when what is required comes up because it's so visceral: we've spent most of our time as a species just trying to have enough calories to survive, we've gone to war for salt to preserve what little food we had so it's an expected response. But if we do not make progress in this domain and create solutions I sincerely think it will lead to the dystopia we've heard from water wars (the more serious issue in my view). > Who buys this? People that don’t like meat but want to feel good about eating junk food that’s vegan and is a poor imitation of it? Sadly, yes, I cooked professionally and my career took me to kitchens in the US and in Europe (alongside my horticulture apprenticeship in Biodynamic Ag) and I even spent time at a renown Vegetarian and Vegan restaurant in the US, and the lengths we went to make 'hamburgers' or 'crab cakes' that were kind of like them but not really was absurd! The amount of oils and other inputs you need for this to be even remotely resemble the texture of the real thing is so absurd, they act as binders or fillers to satiate what is otherwise a starving person. There isn't enough time to discuss this topic in it's entirety, but yes... this was my conclusion and while I've worked in more acclaimed and busier kitchens since then I was outright shocked at was at best misguided idealism, or more often, outright blatant self-righteous ignorance from the end consumer: and this was from someone who dedicated a significant portion of my adult life to finding viable ways to lower meat consumption add increase vegetable consumption. Everything changed when one of regulars had a stroke in the dining room one day during service and I simply could not participate in the operation any longer--a cause I'd later find out after I left was unrelated as he was an older professor from the nearby university but he ate most of his meals at our restaurant for years. He and an older couple (who ordered the same meal everyday) came for dinner service 5-6 days a week at the same time. I think this is simply chemical corps doing the VC model of diversifying their portfolio to fund things that may have a slight chance at playing a part in the inevitable decoupling from this model. They're flush with cash from subsidies, bailouts, corporate welfare and have the media channels and access to influencers: so what are a few billions in R/D that are using their pre-existing reagents, proteins or binders if they can shoe-horn their products into fastfood chains and tell everyone they are saving the World doing it? If they're successful they'll make their margins competitive from IP after creating the demand and make it up over a few years (decades?) with 'strategic' dividends as leaders in the newly established plant-based meat Industry. 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbyoZ2KetYo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbyoZ2KetYo
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rubidium 5y ago
https://www.drugs.com/mtm/methylcellulose.html https://www.drugs.com/mtm/methylcellulose.html

ben_w 5y ago

I think I’ve made vegan chilli with a similar length list of ingredients. Which ones are laxatives?

GhettoComputers 5y ago
False equivalence. Using 5 different beans is different from using something like HFCS, hexane refined hydrogenated rapeseed oil, and industrially separated rice protein and pea protein, unless you think we should equate ingredients such as quinoa and benzoic acid.
- phonypc 5y ago
  Expeller-pressed canola oil is explicitly not "hexane refined hydrogenated rapeseed oil". Also no HFCS.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    These are examples of products that are vegan and are commonly found in vegan food. So do you equate the industrial separating of plant protein from grains as the same as a white northern bean?
    - phonypc 5y ago
      No, they aren't equivalent. But that's not an argument against eating isolated plant proteins.
      - GhettoComputers 5y ago
        Yes it is. It is a legitimate reason against eating heavily processed food including plant proteins, and you have made zero legitimate arguement against it, saying no its not is an invalid point.
        phonypc 5y ago