8 ms·

Yeah I remember all those lectures about over reaction and we ended up with an insurrection and an entire half of our country convinced an election was stolen.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
refurb 5y ago
[snark]Almost lost the Republic on Jan 6th to a whole lot of shoving.[/snark] But more seriously it looks like the government is having a hell of a time convicting anyone there of more than mischief and trespassing.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ModernMech 5y ago
  > [snark]Almost lost the Republic on Jan 6th to a whole lot of shoving.[/snark] Snark aside, the danger of Jan 6 was not shoving - It was people deciding to do the wrong thing in the name of gaining power. The insurrectionists who organized January 6 (yes it was planned) were at the Willard Hotel in a number of suites they called a "War Room" (yes, their words). The entire plan was to delay certification of Joe Biden's victory to give state legislatures time to arrange an alternate slate of electors to be sent to the Capitol. This delay was achieved via a violent mob directed at the Capitol. A delay happened by it wasn't long enough, so the effort failed. But it almost succeeded. They wanted to push Pence in the direction of refusing to certify Biden's 2020 win, thereby kicking the decision to state delegates, of which Republicans controlled a majority. Obviously they would have voted for Trump over Biden. This is how autocracy happens in America: a president who loses both the popular vote and electoral college, appointed by a political party on the basis of fraudulent claims of fraud. No elections will be trusted by either side after that happens.
  - macinjosh 5y ago
    > No elections will be trusted by either side after that happens. This is the Democrats fault. Their shoe-in candidate lost and they spent four years bleating that Trump was illegitimate and failed to prove it with a far reaching investigation. _That_ is where trust started to be lost.
    - Chris2048 5y ago
      I have to agree. They didn't explicitly lie like Trump did/does, but they (or at least, Hilary specifically) did repeatedly mention that they "won the popular vote" as if it was relevant - they wanted to imply the same thing, that Trumps presidency was unfair if not illegitimate.
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      The Muller report and Senate Report on Russian Active Measures (I posted links earlier, but you've already read them I assume: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29080495 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29080495) show that Trump and Russians coordinated efforts, made secret deals, delivered on quid pro quo arrangements, and yes even shared information during the 2016 election. And they lied about it all, destroyed evidence, and obstructed the investigations into their activity. You can characterize objections to such behavior as "bleating", but it doesn't change the fact that the Trump campaign worked with Russian intelligence as they hacked the DNC. There is still no explanation for Trump's campaign manager handing internal campaign data to a Russian intelligence officer, other than collusion.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - macinjosh 5y ago
        Sounds like a bunch of conspiracy theories to me. If it was so awful why didn’t the FBI do anything about it? Because it was a big nothing-burger.
        5y ago
- mijoharas 5y ago
  Five people died. I'm gonna go ahead and put that "shoving" into the not-cool category.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Two cops from unrelated medical conditions and three Trump supporters including one unarmed shot by a cop and one from a meth overdose. Pretty crappy insurrection.
skocznymroczny 5y ago
One man's insurrection is another man's mostly peaceful protest.
- spinny 5y ago
  97% peaceful
  - bsagdiyev 5y ago
    It’s “fiery but mostly peaceful”, that’s the only acceptable kind.
dafoex 5y ago
I would hazard to bet that most of those people involved in the insurrection only did so because of the number of violent protests that were met with underreaction in the previous year. Still, america is a nation of extremes, and if something doesn't go their way they're all very quick to jump to "its a conspiracy against us" conclusion. A union bound together by nothing is doomed to fall apart from the slightest push.
jokethrowaway 5y ago
The previous election was also accused to be stolen. If you look at tweets, both parties had complete trust in election integrity when it fitted their narrative and it was a complete fraud when it was convenient. Do you remember the Russian hackers? Given how crappy USA election practices are (no voter IDs? mail ballot? workers counting ballots without witnesses?) I'm pretty sure there were instances of election fraud in both cases, it's just hard to establish how much it affected the result.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  It's a shame that the parties don't think ahead. When one party pushes for better election practices, the other should roll over, because next election it will benefit them and this election it won't matter.
macinjosh 5y ago
That is extremely hypocritical as the never-Trumpers claimed for 4 years Trump was an illegitimate President and continue to do so even after a multi-year investigation failed to prove any claim to that effect was true.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

refurb 5y ago

[snark]Almost lost the Republic on Jan 6th to a whole lot of shoving.[/snark] But more seriously it looks like the government is having a hell of a time convicting anyone there of more than mischief and trespassing.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ModernMech 5y ago
> [snark]Almost lost the Republic on Jan 6th to a whole lot of shoving.[/snark] Snark aside, the danger of Jan 6 was not shoving - It was people deciding to do the wrong thing in the name of gaining power. The insurrectionists who organized January 6 (yes it was planned) were at the Willard Hotel in a number of suites they called a "War Room" (yes, their words). The entire plan was to delay certification of Joe Biden's victory to give state legislatures time to arrange an alternate slate of electors to be sent to the Capitol. This delay was achieved via a violent mob directed at the Capitol. A delay happened by it wasn't long enough, so the effort failed. But it almost succeeded. They wanted to push Pence in the direction of refusing to certify Biden's 2020 win, thereby kicking the decision to state delegates, of which Republicans controlled a majority. Obviously they would have voted for Trump over Biden. This is how autocracy happens in America: a president who loses both the popular vote and electoral college, appointed by a political party on the basis of fraudulent claims of fraud. No elections will be trusted by either side after that happens.
- macinjosh 5y ago
  > No elections will be trusted by either side after that happens. This is the Democrats fault. Their shoe-in candidate lost and they spent four years bleating that Trump was illegitimate and failed to prove it with a far reaching investigation. _That_ is where trust started to be lost.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    I have to agree. They didn't explicitly lie like Trump did/does, but they (or at least, Hilary specifically) did repeatedly mention that they "won the popular vote" as if it was relevant - they wanted to imply the same thing, that Trumps presidency was unfair if not illegitimate.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    The Muller report and Senate Report on Russian Active Measures (I posted links earlier, but you've already read them I assume: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29080495 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29080495) show that Trump and Russians coordinated efforts, made secret deals, delivered on quid pro quo arrangements, and yes even shared information during the 2016 election. And they lied about it all, destroyed evidence, and obstructed the investigations into their activity. You can characterize objections to such behavior as "bleating", but it doesn't change the fact that the Trump campaign worked with Russian intelligence as they hacked the DNC. There is still no explanation for Trump's campaign manager handing internal campaign data to a Russian intelligence officer, other than collusion.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - macinjosh 5y ago
      Sounds like a bunch of conspiracy theories to me. If it was so awful why didn’t the FBI do anything about it? Because it was a big nothing-burger.
      - 5y ago
mijoharas 5y ago
Five people died. I'm gonna go ahead and put that "shoving" into the not-cool category.
- refurb 5y ago
  Two cops from unrelated medical conditions and three Trump supporters including one unarmed shot by a cop and one from a meth overdose. Pretty crappy insurrection.

skocznymroczny 5y ago

One man's insurrection is another man's mostly peaceful protest.

spinny 5y ago
97% peaceful
- bsagdiyev 5y ago
  It’s “fiery but mostly peaceful”, that’s the only acceptable kind.

dafoex 5y ago

I would hazard to bet that most of those people involved in the insurrection only did so because of the number of violent protests that were met with underreaction in the previous year. Still, america is a nation of extremes, and if something doesn't go their way they're all very quick to jump to "its a conspiracy against us" conclusion. A union bound together by nothing is doomed to fall apart from the slightest push.

jokethrowaway 5y ago

The previous election was also accused to be stolen. If you look at tweets, both parties had complete trust in election integrity when it fitted their narrative and it was a complete fraud when it was convenient. Do you remember the Russian hackers? Given how crappy USA election practices are (no voter IDs? mail ballot? workers counting ballots without witnesses?) I'm pretty sure there were instances of election fraud in both cases, it's just hard to establish how much it affected the result.

wizzwizz4 5y ago
It's a shame that the parties don't think ahead. When one party pushes for better election practices, the other should roll over, because next election it will benefit them and this election it won't matter.

macinjosh 5y ago

That is extremely hypocritical as the never-Trumpers claimed for 4 years Trump was an illegitimate President and continue to do so even after a multi-year investigation failed to prove any claim to that effect was true.