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One thing that is curious about the Indian sub-continent is their mythological texts. There are two well-known epic texts: The Mahabhrat and The Ramayan. Both t

One thing that is curious about the Indian sub-continent is their mythological texts. There are two well-known epic texts: The Mahabhrat and The Ramayan. Both these texts talk about aeroplanes, teleportations, rockets, test-tube baby, body preservation and medicines that heal serious battle injuries. And it is talked about in a matter-of-fact way, as if there is no novelty in these technologies. The frustrating part of these texts is the mixing of facts with fiction. So it becomes difficult to know what was really available back then. But the sheer thought that ancient humans atleast dreamt these advance ideas makes one wonder what type of civilisation was there back then?

bladewolf47 5y ago
I could be wrong because I haven't read unabridged versions of either. My sense is we tend to relate what was described abstractly with advancements we see around us. For e.g. with flying vehicles in ancient epics I'm skeptical that they describe in any detail how flight was achieved besides magic or divine power.
- phekunde 5y ago
  > My sense is we tend to relate what was described abstractly with advancements we see around us. How is the mention of ""vaayu yaan" abstract? Can we similarly say that to the mention of present day "aeroplane" abstract and dismiss it as non-existent? > For e.g. with flying vehicles in ancient epics I'm skeptical that they describe in any detail how flight was achieved besides magic or divine power. In present day writings(fiction or otherwise) when we mention flights or aeroplane, we don't mention every nut and bolt of the aeroplane. So saying the ancient text did not give much details is unfair to those texts. As I mentioned in my original post, these advance ideas were mentioned in a matter-of-fact way as if it is not a novelty, similar to how we now mention air travel or space flights.
  - blackoil 5y ago
    There is a lack of consistency and continuity. We had aeroplane in stories but no similar ground vehicle like Car/train, which should have been invented earlier if technology was present. We had vision across space/time but no knowledge of places outside India.
    - phekunde 5y ago
      We had teleportation ;) Jokes aside, the link between car/trains and aerial vehicles is superficial. There is no hard requirement that one has to come before the other.
  - thechao 5y ago
    > were mentioned in a matter-of-fact way as if it is not a novelty You've said this twice now. In persuasive writing, once you state a fact, you must draw a conclusion, clearly. Please, draw for me your conclusion. Since we're asynchronous, it appears that the conclusion you're drawing is that these texts refer to real things that actually existed: heavier than air flight, spaceflight, test-tube babies, etc. Since we know where (fairly precisely) these things took place, we should have significant archaeological evidence for them. Could you point me to the physical proof of these? Because, I feel like these objects would've come up in my readings, before. If you're not drawing the conclusion they actually existed, what conclusion are you drawing?
    - dr_dshiv 5y ago
      I’ll bite! The conclusion is that there were ancient civilizations that we don’t currently have archeological evidence for. If you know anything about archeological research in India, you know that it is far, far from comprehensive. Here’s a small example: Shiva is often represented smoking a chillum. Yet, the accepted understanding is that smoking was developed in the Americas and no smoking in the old world took place pre-1492. It would therefore be a major discovery to establish that a chillum was precolumbian. There simply isn’t a research base (no funding, no training) to investigate even simple questions like this. Might we find evidence of, say, metallurgy that is 10,000 years old in India? Perhaps! Should we expect to? Probably not. Should we do more archaeological research in India? 100% Who will fund it?
      - thechao 5y ago
        Smoking is attested both archeologically, and historiographically dating back something like 7000 years in the old world. People have been smoking opium & marijuana in the middle east for probably 2000 years. Smoking culture in India goes back at least 3000 years. Anyone who's accidentally put the wrong thing on a fire will immediately recognize the source for "smoking". This makes me feel like the rest of your comment is probably not accurate, either.
        dr_dshiv 5y ago
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  I mean, if a complete layperson were to describe how an airplane works, how would you even begin? It looks a bit like a bird and err, it's very loud, and it flies! I mean if you don't know the least about an engine, how would you describe it? There's untold masses of people out there that still lack even a basic education, and that education / class difference was worse as you go back in time. Anyway, your second sentence reminds me of how we interpret e.g. Nostradamus' writing in hindsight, how he predicted Hitler and 9/11 and all that. But only in hindsight.
ajuc 5y ago
There's a weird effect with these things - myths from other cultures seem fascinating and indicate Atlantis-like civilizations. Similar myths from you own culture are obviously just boring metaphors and scary stories to make children behave. For example the Tower of Babel could be interpreted as aliens destroying a space program (possibly space elevator) with mind-control technology. But with the cultural baggage of the christian civilization we interpret it very differently. The story about Jericho could be about nuclear weapons or orbital bombardment. The story about Lazarus could be some advanced medicine. There's a lot of this stuff in any culture - but they seem more awesome when you weren't indoctrinated about the "correct" interpretations since you were a child.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > they seem more awesome when you weren't indoctrinated about the "correct" interpretations since you were a child This isn't totally true in India. I've had relatives seriously contemplate ancient Indian civilizations with heavier-than-air flight, nuclear weapons and even orbital capabilities. (A similar thing happened in industrializing Britain and Prussia, so maybe it's just a natural thing in a culture undergoing rapid industrialization.)
- phekunde 5y ago
  > For example the Tower of Babel could be interpreted as... But there is no need for interpretation or misinterpretation of some of these texts because the text directly mentions the transportation e.g. in Raamaayan, the then king of Lanka(present day Shri Lanka), Raavan, flew from Lanka on his "vaayu yaan"(i.e. aeroplane) to Panchavati(in present day Nashik in the western state of Maharashtra in India) to kidnap Sitaa, wife of Raam.
  - Tagbert 5y ago
    You interpret "vaayu yaan" as aeroplane, but what is the basis to assume it is something so specific? You just as easily assume they meant something like the flying carpets of Arabian myths.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
blackoil 5y ago
Most of these were novel and rare mostly given as a boon by the Gods. We also have monkeys, vulture, bear with human like or beyond intelligence. The numbers were off by all practical imaginations. Armies were of order of 10^7 - 10^70.
- jimsimmons 5y ago
  But but my WhatsApp forward said ancient Indians also had VR and AR so anything is possible. /s
naruvimama 5y ago
'matter-of-fact' - what is more important is that the after effects/side effect are eerily accurate so makes it hard to dismiss it as mere imagination. In the Hindu thought, everything is cyclical including the birth and death of the universe. It is not human or earth centric, talks about other planets or worlds requiring space travel, space-time effects of travel. Nagas - advanced reptilian people who precede humans and in some stories come to the aid of humans sound alien or a parallel species.
renewiltord 5y ago
It’s just sci fi. If you read a modern sci fi book you’ll find casual references to spaceplanes, wormholes, and stuff like that. In many of them, the characters won’t even remark about the wormholes. It’s normal. Like almost all ancient literature, Gods are just the primary medium via which the ideas are delivered. So sci fi becomes divine sci fi, drama becomes divine drama, etc.
- phekunde 5y ago
  Yep, this could be one potent reasoning. And that is why I said in my original post that it will be interesting to find out about that ancient civilisation that was able to think about so many advance concepts.
adictator 5y ago
Those are called ITIHAASA which literally means "it so happened". In other words, they are history & not mythology. Just because the current generation cannot comprehend them does not mean they are myths. For example, I have personally seen saadhus / yogis who have mastered Yoga live absolutely naked in the sub-frigid temperatures of the himalayas. Science has not been able to explain this other than calling them miracles or like you calling them myths. Please show some respect & do not call ITIHAASA as myths.
tablespoon 5y ago
> Both these texts talk about aeroplanes, teleportations, rockets, test-tube baby, body preservation and medicines that heal serious battle injuries. And it is talked about in a matter-of-fact way, as if there is no novelty in these technologies. The frustrating part of these texts is the mixing of facts with fiction. So it becomes difficult to know what was really available back then. But the sheer thought that ancient humans atleast dreamt these advance ideas makes one wonder what type of civilisation was there back then? If ancient civilization actually realized any of those technologies, I'm certain it would have left a significant archeological trace that would have been discovered by now. For instance: an actual airplane (as opposed to a glider) would need a significant industrial base for the engine and fuel that we'd probably see all kinds of evidence for. I don't think that's the kind of thing a solo inventor or even a city-state could manage independently.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  There's the ancient atomic war theory: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/thedanispost/researchers-find-proof-of-ancient-atomic-war-a-great-many-years-prior/ https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/thedanispost/resea... https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4541 https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4541
  - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
    It couldn't have been atomic war, because traces would still be found of nuclear fallout, like how they look for steel from pre-ww2 shipwrecks now because they're not contaminated by trace radiation. But who knows? Maybe it was a vision of the future?
- snambi 5y ago
  Depends on, how long ago those events happened and the amount of human activity in the area.
quixoticaxolotl 5y ago
This is a well-known and popularized myth about the ancient scriptures which plays on patriotic feeling by claiming "uniqueness" and advancement in ancient India. It is manifestly not true or based in fact that any of these technologies existed at the time - there's simply too many holes (why didn't any other culture reproduce these fantastic feats or obtain access to these? where is the archaeological record? why did no other text from the time corroborate this story?), and the best "evidence" the scriptures even talk about this are generous translations that don't accord with the actual historical or linguistic data. This sort of myth is yet another distortion of the past in favour of a narrative enshrining pre-modern India as superior that has taken ahold of my country. Only in India will people claim Valmiki's is the only valid version of the Ramayana (there are hundreds of versions of the Ramayana, some told as far as Thailand, of which Valmiki's is just one - see A. K. Ramanujam's "Three Hundred Ramayanas"); make homeopathy derived from Ayurveda a nationally accredited field of medicine despite overwhelming clinical evidence it is no better than a placebo; and claim the Vedas predicted the inventions we take for granted today. It is misplaced reverence untempered by an awareness of how to interpret historical documents, and all it serves is to blind people to facts and common sense.
- hderms 5y ago
  Yeah it's unnerving because there are many great, real accomplishments from people in India, and no doubt many more to be found in the future. But dreaming about a special destiny inherited from the past doesn't necessarily require the dreamer to think about the here and now and what responsibility they may have to bring about the future we all desire. It's dangerous because it simultaneously pacifies people towards the active role they should take in creating the world they will live in but also promises them they are the would-be inheritors of some mythical past, and that others are unlike them in that way. As always we gotta work together and look towards the future, not the past. Basically, if you want to live in Star Trek, at least.
  - samarthr1 5y ago
    At the same time, one must remember these stories form a significant party of Indian culture. The telling of hari katha in order to inculcate good values, the recital of the Vedas, the teaching of the Upanishads, the chanting of the various stotrams all have great benefit. I make that statement from personal experience. Many habits that have been passed down the generations have helped make us the society we are today. As the next generation, it is our duty as a whole to preserve this for our descendants. For history one forgotten is tough to be retrieved. It would be a shame for one of the oldest cultures in the world to die out.
paxys 5y ago
You can say the same thing about mythology from other cultures (Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Chinese, Arthurian and hundreds more). Ultimately human imagination works the same way worldwide.

bladewolf47 5y ago

I could be wrong because I haven't read unabridged versions of either. My sense is we tend to relate what was described abstractly with advancements we see around us. For e.g. with flying vehicles in ancient epics I'm skeptical that they describe in any detail how flight was achieved besides magic or divine power.

phekunde 5y ago
> My sense is we tend to relate what was described abstractly with advancements we see around us. How is the mention of ""vaayu yaan" abstract? Can we similarly say that to the mention of present day "aeroplane" abstract and dismiss it as non-existent? > For e.g. with flying vehicles in ancient epics I'm skeptical that they describe in any detail how flight was achieved besides magic or divine power. In present day writings(fiction or otherwise) when we mention flights or aeroplane, we don't mention every nut and bolt of the aeroplane. So saying the ancient text did not give much details is unfair to those texts. As I mentioned in my original post, these advance ideas were mentioned in a matter-of-fact way as if it is not a novelty, similar to how we now mention air travel or space flights.
- blackoil 5y ago
  There is a lack of consistency and continuity. We had aeroplane in stories but no similar ground vehicle like Car/train, which should have been invented earlier if technology was present. We had vision across space/time but no knowledge of places outside India.
  - phekunde 5y ago
    We had teleportation ;) Jokes aside, the link between car/trains and aerial vehicles is superficial. There is no hard requirement that one has to come before the other.
- thechao 5y ago
  > were mentioned in a matter-of-fact way as if it is not a novelty You've said this twice now. In persuasive writing, once you state a fact, you must draw a conclusion, clearly. Please, draw for me your conclusion. Since we're asynchronous, it appears that the conclusion you're drawing is that these texts refer to real things that actually existed: heavier than air flight, spaceflight, test-tube babies, etc. Since we know where (fairly precisely) these things took place, we should have significant archaeological evidence for them. Could you point me to the physical proof of these? Because, I feel like these objects would've come up in my readings, before. If you're not drawing the conclusion they actually existed, what conclusion are you drawing?
  - dr_dshiv 5y ago
    I’ll bite! The conclusion is that there were ancient civilizations that we don’t currently have archeological evidence for. If you know anything about archeological research in India, you know that it is far, far from comprehensive. Here’s a small example: Shiva is often represented smoking a chillum. Yet, the accepted understanding is that smoking was developed in the Americas and no smoking in the old world took place pre-1492. It would therefore be a major discovery to establish that a chillum was precolumbian. There simply isn’t a research base (no funding, no training) to investigate even simple questions like this. Might we find evidence of, say, metallurgy that is 10,000 years old in India? Perhaps! Should we expect to? Probably not. Should we do more archaeological research in India? 100% Who will fund it?
    - thechao 5y ago
      Smoking is attested both archeologically, and historiographically dating back something like 7000 years in the old world. People have been smoking opium & marijuana in the middle east for probably 2000 years. Smoking culture in India goes back at least 3000 years. Anyone who's accidentally put the wrong thing on a fire will immediately recognize the source for "smoking". This makes me feel like the rest of your comment is probably not accurate, either.
      - dr_dshiv 5y ago
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
I mean, if a complete layperson were to describe how an airplane works, how would you even begin? It looks a bit like a bird and err, it's very loud, and it flies! I mean if you don't know the least about an engine, how would you describe it? There's untold masses of people out there that still lack even a basic education, and that education / class difference was worse as you go back in time. Anyway, your second sentence reminds me of how we interpret e.g. Nostradamus' writing in hindsight, how he predicted Hitler and 9/11 and all that. But only in hindsight.

ajuc 5y ago

There's a weird effect with these things - myths from other cultures seem fascinating and indicate Atlantis-like civilizations. Similar myths from you own culture are obviously just boring metaphors and scary stories to make children behave. For example the Tower of Babel could be interpreted as aliens destroying a space program (possibly space elevator) with mind-control technology. But with the cultural baggage of the christian civilization we interpret it very differently. The story about Jericho could be about nuclear weapons or orbital bombardment. The story about Lazarus could be some advanced medicine. There's a lot of this stuff in any culture - but they seem more awesome when you weren't indoctrinated about the "correct" interpretations since you were a child.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> they seem more awesome when you weren't indoctrinated about the "correct" interpretations since you were a child This isn't totally true in India. I've had relatives seriously contemplate ancient Indian civilizations with heavier-than-air flight, nuclear weapons and even orbital capabilities. (A similar thing happened in industrializing Britain and Prussia, so maybe it's just a natural thing in a culture undergoing rapid industrialization.)
phekunde 5y ago
> For example the Tower of Babel could be interpreted as... But there is no need for interpretation or misinterpretation of some of these texts because the text directly mentions the transportation e.g. in Raamaayan, the then king of Lanka(present day Shri Lanka), Raavan, flew from Lanka on his "vaayu yaan"(i.e. aeroplane) to Panchavati(in present day Nashik in the western state of Maharashtra in India) to kidnap Sitaa, wife of Raam.
- Tagbert 5y ago
  You interpret "vaayu yaan" as aeroplane, but what is the basis to assume it is something so specific? You just as easily assume they meant something like the flying carpets of Arabian myths.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago

blackoil 5y ago

Most of these were novel and rare mostly given as a boon by the Gods. We also have monkeys, vulture, bear with human like or beyond intelligence. The numbers were off by all practical imaginations. Armies were of order of 10^7 - 10^70.

jimsimmons 5y ago
But but my WhatsApp forward said ancient Indians also had VR and AR so anything is possible. /s

naruvimama 5y ago

'matter-of-fact' - what is more important is that the after effects/side effect are eerily accurate so makes it hard to dismiss it as mere imagination. In the Hindu thought, everything is cyclical including the birth and death of the universe. It is not human or earth centric, talks about other planets or worlds requiring space travel, space-time effects of travel. Nagas - advanced reptilian people who precede humans and in some stories come to the aid of humans sound alien or a parallel species.

renewiltord 5y ago

It’s just sci fi. If you read a modern sci fi book you’ll find casual references to spaceplanes, wormholes, and stuff like that. In many of them, the characters won’t even remark about the wormholes. It’s normal. Like almost all ancient literature, Gods are just the primary medium via which the ideas are delivered. So sci fi becomes divine sci fi, drama becomes divine drama, etc.

phekunde 5y ago
Yep, this could be one potent reasoning. And that is why I said in my original post that it will be interesting to find out about that ancient civilisation that was able to think about so many advance concepts.

adictator 5y ago

Those are called ITIHAASA which literally means "it so happened". In other words, they are history & not mythology. Just because the current generation cannot comprehend them does not mean they are myths. For example, I have personally seen saadhus / yogis who have mastered Yoga live absolutely naked in the sub-frigid temperatures of the himalayas. Science has not been able to explain this other than calling them miracles or like you calling them myths. Please show some respect & do not call ITIHAASA as myths.

tablespoon 5y ago

> Both these texts talk about aeroplanes, teleportations, rockets, test-tube baby, body preservation and medicines that heal serious battle injuries. And it is talked about in a matter-of-fact way, as if there is no novelty in these technologies. The frustrating part of these texts is the mixing of facts with fiction. So it becomes difficult to know what was really available back then. But the sheer thought that ancient humans atleast dreamt these advance ideas makes one wonder what type of civilisation was there back then? If ancient civilization actually realized any of those technologies, I'm certain it would have left a significant archeological trace that would have been discovered by now. For instance: an actual airplane (as opposed to a glider) would need a significant industrial base for the engine and fuel that we'd probably see all kinds of evidence for. I don't think that's the kind of thing a solo inventor or even a city-state could manage independently.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Apocryphon 5y ago
There's the ancient atomic war theory: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/thedanispost/researchers-find-proof-of-ancient-atomic-war-a-great-many-years-prior/ https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/thedanispost/resea... https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4541 https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4541
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  It couldn't have been atomic war, because traces would still be found of nuclear fallout, like how they look for steel from pre-ww2 shipwrecks now because they're not contaminated by trace radiation. But who knows? Maybe it was a vision of the future?
snambi 5y ago
Depends on, how long ago those events happened and the amount of human activity in the area.

quixoticaxolotl 5y ago

This is a well-known and popularized myth about the ancient scriptures which plays on patriotic feeling by claiming "uniqueness" and advancement in ancient India. It is manifestly not true or based in fact that any of these technologies existed at the time - there's simply too many holes (why didn't any other culture reproduce these fantastic feats or obtain access to these? where is the archaeological record? why did no other text from the time corroborate this story?), and the best "evidence" the scriptures even talk about this are generous translations that don't accord with the actual historical or linguistic data. This sort of myth is yet another distortion of the past in favour of a narrative enshrining pre-modern India as superior that has taken ahold of my country. Only in India will people claim Valmiki's is the only valid version of the Ramayana (there are hundreds of versions of the Ramayana, some told as far as Thailand, of which Valmiki's is just one - see A. K. Ramanujam's "Three Hundred Ramayanas"); make homeopathy derived from Ayurveda a nationally accredited field of medicine despite overwhelming clinical evidence it is no better than a placebo; and claim the Vedas predicted the inventions we take for granted today. It is misplaced reverence untempered by an awareness of how to interpret historical documents, and all it serves is to blind people to facts and common sense.

hderms 5y ago
Yeah it's unnerving because there are many great, real accomplishments from people in India, and no doubt many more to be found in the future. But dreaming about a special destiny inherited from the past doesn't necessarily require the dreamer to think about the here and now and what responsibility they may have to bring about the future we all desire. It's dangerous because it simultaneously pacifies people towards the active role they should take in creating the world they will live in but also promises them they are the would-be inheritors of some mythical past, and that others are unlike them in that way. As always we gotta work together and look towards the future, not the past. Basically, if you want to live in Star Trek, at least.
- samarthr1 5y ago
  At the same time, one must remember these stories form a significant party of Indian culture. The telling of hari katha in order to inculcate good values, the recital of the Vedas, the teaching of the Upanishads, the chanting of the various stotrams all have great benefit. I make that statement from personal experience. Many habits that have been passed down the generations have helped make us the society we are today. As the next generation, it is our duty as a whole to preserve this for our descendants. For history one forgotten is tough to be retrieved. It would be a shame for one of the oldest cultures in the world to die out.

paxys 5y ago

You can say the same thing about mythology from other cultures (Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Chinese, Arthurian and hundreds more). Ultimately human imagination works the same way worldwide.