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"standardized charging cable connectors are mandatory in Europe" That's why it's opening it up first in the EU. Source: https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/1/227

by gadnuk 5y ago

"standardized charging cable connectors are mandatory in Europe" That's why it's opening it up first in the EU. Source: https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/1/22757159/tesla-supercharge-ev-pilot-netherlands https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/1/22757159/tesla-supercharg...

rvz 5y ago
I see, thanks for the source. Also in the reuters article: > Tesla uses the CCS standard in Europe, allowing a wide range of cars to charge in stations without an adapter that uses a similar connector. That also explains the announcement first in Europe as well.
Reason077 5y ago
Tesla converted their chargers to use the standard charging connector in Europe (CCS) several years ago. But while any CCS vehicle was technically capable of plugging in to Tesla's CCS superchargers, until now only Tesla vehicles could charge there because the supercharger's software would recognise a non-Tesla vehicle and not allow it to charge. There isn't a mandate that requires charging stations must be public and available to all vehicles. However, by converting the supercharger network into an open charging network, Tesla should be eligible to bid for government funding for charger network expansion, which was not available to a Tesla-exclusive charging network.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  Apparently, EU made CCS compulsory for the Electric vehicle charging network since 2014[0]. It's not really a happy accident but a regulation that went well. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System
  - llampx 5y ago
    And this article is exactly why it shows that it made so much sense. With one software update, so many more chargers came online for all EVs in Europe, that could not happen in the US where Teslas use a special plug.
    - namlem 5y ago
      The plug isn't that big an obstacle, adapters are like $150.
      - mrtksn 5y ago
        Any friction is a big deal, it makes the difference between having a few nerds doing it or everybody.
    - clouddrover 5y ago
      Tesla created the same problem for themselves in Europe. Instead of being CCS Type 2 Combo from the beginning, Tesla initially went with their own different special plug. It was a modified Type 2 which also supported DC fast charging. A few years ago Tesla retrofitted all chargers in Europe to have two plugs - their modified type 2 and CCS. The Model 3 launched with a CCS inlet in Europe and older Model Ss and Xs needed a hardware change and an adapter to use CCS: https://insideevs.com/news/343728/most-tesla-superchargers-now-retrofitted-with-ccs-plugs-in-europe-video/ https://insideevs.com/news/343728/most-tesla-superchargers-n... https://insideevs.com/news/438861/ccs2-retrofit-tesla-europe-cheaper/ https://insideevs.com/news/438861/ccs2-retrofit-tesla-europe... These days Tesla's newer chargers just have CCS plugs. Tesla could do a similar retrofit in North America as part of the transition to CCS. It's a bigger problem because there are more chargers to do, but it's still only 12,653 ports: https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
        Tesla didn’t create the problem for themselves purposely. CCS Type 2 was not in production when Tesla began building Superchargers a decade ago (and didn’t want their progress impeded by typical “death by committee” of legacy automakers, as a functioning fast DC charging network is a moat and an asset for an EV manufacturer), and while Europe forced them to adopt CCS in that market, I believe Tesla’s plug will remain the standard in the US for the foreseeable future (as they sell the majority of EVs in America, have the largest charging network, and the US government doesn’t have the political will to mandate CCS). Tesla has committed to tripling the size of the US Supercharger network in the next two years while Electrify America is desperate for investment it can’t get (because, no surprise, you can’t make a profit with fast DC charging stations between demand charges and price sensitive drivers [1]; it’s a cost center you want to break even on to sell high margin cars, not a revenue driver as a distinct business). [1] https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nearly-all-high-voltage-ev-charging-stations-lose-money-report/561026/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nearly-all-high-voltage-ev-...
- oblio 5y ago
  > There isn't a mandate that requires charging stations must be public and available to all vehicles. However, by converting the supercharger network into an open charging network, Tesla should be eligible to bid for government funding for charger network expansion, which was not available to a Tesla-exclusive charging network. So you're telling me that instead of a specific kind of government regulation, another kind of government regulation got Tesla out of the walled garden? Got it!
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > supercharger's software would recognise a non-Tesla vehicle Also it has taken time for open standards to be developed to allow "Plug & Charge" operation: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Charge_Point_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Charge_Point_Protocol There are of course charge stations where you use an app or kiosk to enter your user account/payment information.
  - Reason077 5y ago
    Tesla haven't implemented Plug & Charge for non-Tesla vehicles yet. With the current implementation, you download the Tesla app, set up your payment account, then manually select your stall number in the app to begin charging.
- _ph_ 5y ago
  Actually it seems that the Tesla superchargers had everying implemented to charge any vehicle, but lacking a payment process would refuse to do so. This became apparent when about a year ago there was some issue with the authentication module at some supercharger in Germany. For a day or so it would happily charge any brands car for free. This quickly spread via the internet and soon there was a wide variety of non-Tesla cars charging there. One still wonders whether this just was a strange bug or some undercover test arranged by Tesla :)
- guerby 5y ago
  In France charging station on public land (or assimilated) must be open to all vehicule, and there is a common information system to manage this. http://www.avere-france.org/Site/Article/?article_id=7989 http://www.avere-france.org/Site/Article/?article_id=7989 https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/JORFTEXT000043475363 https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/JORFTEXT000043475363 That's why tesla charger are on private managed lands (hotels, stores, ...).
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
MadeThisToReply 5y ago
So when are Apple going to make phones that use the same charging cables as everyone else?
- pizzapill 5y ago
  EU is currently in the process of making USB-C charging mandatory. Apple is still in denial but they will follow suit eventually, in the EU at least.
  - oblio 5y ago
    They're very likely do it everywhere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect It costs quite a bit to have different SKUs around the world, especially when one of the SKUs is for a major market. At some point it becomes more cost efficient to just cut out some of SKUs. California has the same effect in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_effect
    - fragmede 5y ago
      Cars are not iPhones though, and emissions control systems aren't slightly different models. In particular, Hong Kong has its own special dual-sim iPhone model that the rest of the world doesn't get. Only Apple knows what they'll do for USB-C, but they have per-Country SKUs for iPhones already so it wouldn't be out of the question.
      - hadrien01 5y ago
        They still try to have a limited number of SKUs. Suica (Japan) and CMDA (China/US) features are not limited to specific SKUs anymore, and the dual-SIM SKUs are available in India and China, two very large markets.
        AMD_DRIVERS 5y ago
        All new non dual-SIM iPhones have an eSIM too, so they're all technically dual SIM now.

by gadnuk 5y ago

rvz 5y ago

I see, thanks for the source. Also in the reuters article: > Tesla uses the CCS standard in Europe, allowing a wide range of cars to charge in stations without an adapter that uses a similar connector. That also explains the announcement first in Europe as well.

Reason077 5y ago

Tesla converted their chargers to use the standard charging connector in Europe (CCS) several years ago. But while any CCS vehicle was technically capable of plugging in to Tesla's CCS superchargers, until now only Tesla vehicles could charge there because the supercharger's software would recognise a non-Tesla vehicle and not allow it to charge. There isn't a mandate that requires charging stations must be public and available to all vehicles. However, by converting the supercharger network into an open charging network, Tesla should be eligible to bid for government funding for charger network expansion, which was not available to a Tesla-exclusive charging network.

mrtksn 5y ago
Apparently, EU made CCS compulsory for the Electric vehicle charging network since 2014[0]. It's not really a happy accident but a regulation that went well. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System
- llampx 5y ago
  And this article is exactly why it shows that it made so much sense. With one software update, so many more chargers came online for all EVs in Europe, that could not happen in the US where Teslas use a special plug.
  - namlem 5y ago
    The plug isn't that big an obstacle, adapters are like $150.
    - mrtksn 5y ago
      Any friction is a big deal, it makes the difference between having a few nerds doing it or everybody.
  - clouddrover 5y ago
    Tesla created the same problem for themselves in Europe. Instead of being CCS Type 2 Combo from the beginning, Tesla initially went with their own different special plug. It was a modified Type 2 which also supported DC fast charging. A few years ago Tesla retrofitted all chargers in Europe to have two plugs - their modified type 2 and CCS. The Model 3 launched with a CCS inlet in Europe and older Model Ss and Xs needed a hardware change and an adapter to use CCS: https://insideevs.com/news/343728/most-tesla-superchargers-now-retrofitted-with-ccs-plugs-in-europe-video/ https://insideevs.com/news/343728/most-tesla-superchargers-n... https://insideevs.com/news/438861/ccs2-retrofit-tesla-europe-cheaper/ https://insideevs.com/news/438861/ccs2-retrofit-tesla-europe... These days Tesla's newer chargers just have CCS plugs. Tesla could do a similar retrofit in North America as part of the transition to CCS. It's a bigger problem because there are more chargers to do, but it's still only 12,653 ports: https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      Tesla didn’t create the problem for themselves purposely. CCS Type 2 was not in production when Tesla began building Superchargers a decade ago (and didn’t want their progress impeded by typical “death by committee” of legacy automakers, as a functioning fast DC charging network is a moat and an asset for an EV manufacturer), and while Europe forced them to adopt CCS in that market, I believe Tesla’s plug will remain the standard in the US for the foreseeable future (as they sell the majority of EVs in America, have the largest charging network, and the US government doesn’t have the political will to mandate CCS). Tesla has committed to tripling the size of the US Supercharger network in the next two years while Electrify America is desperate for investment it can’t get (because, no surprise, you can’t make a profit with fast DC charging stations between demand charges and price sensitive drivers [1]; it’s a cost center you want to break even on to sell high margin cars, not a revenue driver as a distinct business). [1] https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nearly-all-high-voltage-ev-charging-stations-lose-money-report/561026/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nearly-all-high-voltage-ev-...
oblio 5y ago
> There isn't a mandate that requires charging stations must be public and available to all vehicles. However, by converting the supercharger network into an open charging network, Tesla should be eligible to bid for government funding for charger network expansion, which was not available to a Tesla-exclusive charging network. So you're telling me that instead of a specific kind of government regulation, another kind of government regulation got Tesla out of the walled garden? Got it!
throw0101a 5y ago
> supercharger's software would recognise a non-Tesla vehicle Also it has taken time for open standards to be developed to allow "Plug & Charge" operation: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Charge_Point_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Charge_Point_Protocol There are of course charge stations where you use an app or kiosk to enter your user account/payment information.
- Reason077 5y ago
  Tesla haven't implemented Plug & Charge for non-Tesla vehicles yet. With the current implementation, you download the Tesla app, set up your payment account, then manually select your stall number in the app to begin charging.
_ph_ 5y ago
Actually it seems that the Tesla superchargers had everying implemented to charge any vehicle, but lacking a payment process would refuse to do so. This became apparent when about a year ago there was some issue with the authentication module at some supercharger in Germany. For a day or so it would happily charge any brands car for free. This quickly spread via the internet and soon there was a wide variety of non-Tesla cars charging there. One still wonders whether this just was a strange bug or some undercover test arranged by Tesla :)
guerby 5y ago
In France charging station on public land (or assimilated) must be open to all vehicule, and there is a common information system to manage this. http://www.avere-france.org/Site/Article/?article_id=7989 http://www.avere-france.org/Site/Article/?article_id=7989 https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/JORFTEXT000043475363 https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/JORFTEXT000043475363 That's why tesla charger are on private managed lands (hotels, stores, ...).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

MadeThisToReply 5y ago

So when are Apple going to make phones that use the same charging cables as everyone else?

pizzapill 5y ago
EU is currently in the process of making USB-C charging mandatory. Apple is still in denial but they will follow suit eventually, in the EU at least.
- oblio 5y ago
  They're very likely do it everywhere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect It costs quite a bit to have different SKUs around the world, especially when one of the SKUs is for a major market. At some point it becomes more cost efficient to just cut out some of SKUs. California has the same effect in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_effect
  - fragmede 5y ago
    Cars are not iPhones though, and emissions control systems aren't slightly different models. In particular, Hong Kong has its own special dual-sim iPhone model that the rest of the world doesn't get. Only Apple knows what they'll do for USB-C, but they have per-Country SKUs for iPhones already so it wouldn't be out of the question.
    - hadrien01 5y ago
      They still try to have a limited number of SKUs. Suica (Japan) and CMDA (China/US) features are not limited to specific SKUs anymore, and the dual-SIM SKUs are available in India and China, two very large markets.
      - AMD_DRIVERS 5y ago
        All new non dual-SIM iPhones have an eSIM too, so they're all technically dual SIM now.