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What I don't get is how people growing up in free coutries can have such a distopian view of their governments. You all watched too much black mirror. If you st

What I don't get is how people growing up in free coutries can have such a distopian view of their governments. You all watched too much black mirror. If you study how the balance of powers are structured in the US/UK/EU you'll find it's nigh impossible for these countries to become totalitarian. The US even under Trump didn't become one, but he was as close to a possible dictator as it gets. How do you all go about your daily lives with such dark views on the world? Are there seriously so many doomers/preppers/anarchists out there?

nix23 5y ago
Ask that rapper in Spain if he thinks he lives in a "free" country. https://www.euronews.com/2021/02/23/how-a-rapper-s-arrest-in-spain-sparked-riots-and-fierce-debate-about-freedom-of-expression https://www.euronews.com/2021/02/23/how-a-rapper-s-arrest-in... Why do you think freedom is made by the government and not the peoples?
- ricardobayes 5y ago
  What would be your reaction if there was an American rapper who would rap day and night of say secession of Texas and glorifying a militant group whose goal is to secede Texas out of USA? And say those gangs did kill many hundred innocent people through explosions and so. Do you think the families of the victims of this militant group think it is okay to sing songs in praise of this group?
  - int_19h 5y ago
    > He has been jailed for tweets that judges deemed glorified the now-defunct terror groups Grapo and ETA, and for insulting the monarchy and police.
    - ricardobayes 5y ago
      That was an additional charge, like evading the cops but getting a charge for not wearing a seatbelt. But everybody acts like he _went to jail for disrespecting the king_. It's a law in Spain. There is a similar law in the UK as well, but it's not enforced that much. Theoretically you can go to jail for defacing money or other stuff in the UK too. (Like drawing a beard on the queen)
      - int_19h 5y ago
        FWIW I don't really have a problem with him "glorifying" ETA, either (and wouldn't have a problem with somebody in Texas doing the same for a similarly minded local organization). I was merely pointing out that it's not just that. And yes, of course, it's a law in Spain - that's the point of this conversation, that such laws exist (or can be introduced), and then selectively enforced against those the government wants to target for whatever reason, even in an ostensibly-liberal democracy. Let me give you another example. In Russia, there was an "anti-extremism" law passed a few years ago that made it a crime to make public statements that "foment hatred or enmity against identifiable social groups". I can think of quite a few Western progressives who would probably cheer something like that as written. Only it turns out that e.g. police is an "identifiable social group", too, and so are members of the parliament!
ddaalluu1 5y ago
You obviously were not alive in the cold war era. I have to repeat myself your perspective is a very naive one. Becoming totalitarian is a step by step path. "Article 13 won't bring upload filters" 2 years later... upload filters. The basis of the EU is not a democracy and as you can see and will see in future attempts will become so less and less over time. There will always be people who want to control and spy upon other people. And without knowing you I'll say you too. If you get the chance to spy on someone's bedroom passing by from outside the window without being noticed and no risk of being caught you will do so. Opportunity creates crime.
int_19h 5y ago
I grew up in the USSR. The government that replaced it, did so on the promise of democracy and liberalism. It took less than 10 years for that all to go down the drain. And then we've all seen 9/11 and what happened in liberal democracies after that, when various far-reaching anti-terrorism legislation was rushed through, and then routinely used by law enforcement in completely unrelated matters. This entire argument - that Western governments are somehow exempt from the curse of corrupting power, and therefore letting them centralize more and more is not a problem - has already been disproven experimentally.

nix23 5y ago

Ask that rapper in Spain if he thinks he lives in a "free" country. https://www.euronews.com/2021/02/23/how-a-rapper-s-arrest-in-spain-sparked-riots-and-fierce-debate-about-freedom-of-expression https://www.euronews.com/2021/02/23/how-a-rapper-s-arrest-in... Why do you think freedom is made by the government and not the peoples?

ricardobayes 5y ago
What would be your reaction if there was an American rapper who would rap day and night of say secession of Texas and glorifying a militant group whose goal is to secede Texas out of USA? And say those gangs did kill many hundred innocent people through explosions and so. Do you think the families of the victims of this militant group think it is okay to sing songs in praise of this group?
- int_19h 5y ago
  > He has been jailed for tweets that judges deemed glorified the now-defunct terror groups Grapo and ETA, and for insulting the monarchy and police.
  - ricardobayes 5y ago
    That was an additional charge, like evading the cops but getting a charge for not wearing a seatbelt. But everybody acts like he _went to jail for disrespecting the king_. It's a law in Spain. There is a similar law in the UK as well, but it's not enforced that much. Theoretically you can go to jail for defacing money or other stuff in the UK too. (Like drawing a beard on the queen)
    - int_19h 5y ago
      FWIW I don't really have a problem with him "glorifying" ETA, either (and wouldn't have a problem with somebody in Texas doing the same for a similarly minded local organization). I was merely pointing out that it's not just that. And yes, of course, it's a law in Spain - that's the point of this conversation, that such laws exist (or can be introduced), and then selectively enforced against those the government wants to target for whatever reason, even in an ostensibly-liberal democracy. Let me give you another example. In Russia, there was an "anti-extremism" law passed a few years ago that made it a crime to make public statements that "foment hatred or enmity against identifiable social groups". I can think of quite a few Western progressives who would probably cheer something like that as written. Only it turns out that e.g. police is an "identifiable social group", too, and so are members of the parliament!

ddaalluu1 5y ago

You obviously were not alive in the cold war era. I have to repeat myself your perspective is a very naive one. Becoming totalitarian is a step by step path. "Article 13 won't bring upload filters" 2 years later... upload filters. The basis of the EU is not a democracy and as you can see and will see in future attempts will become so less and less over time. There will always be people who want to control and spy upon other people. And without knowing you I'll say you too. If you get the chance to spy on someone's bedroom passing by from outside the window without being noticed and no risk of being caught you will do so. Opportunity creates crime.

int_19h 5y ago

I grew up in the USSR. The government that replaced it, did so on the promise of democracy and liberalism. It took less than 10 years for that all to go down the drain. And then we've all seen 9/11 and what happened in liberal democracies after that, when various far-reaching anti-terrorism legislation was rushed through, and then routinely used by law enforcement in completely unrelated matters. This entire argument - that Western governments are somehow exempt from the curse of corrupting power, and therefore letting them centralize more and more is not a problem - has already been disproven experimentally.