5 ms·

It's not about the readability of code on web pages, but the fact that web pages are unnecessarily bloated in the first place. Even static page generators seem

by kiba 5y ago

It's not about the readability of code on web pages, but the fact that web pages are unnecessarily bloated in the first place. Even static page generators seem a bit too complicated at time.

onion2k 5y ago
I see this argument a lot on HN, but whenever I look at web pages (which is pretty much all day, every day) I don't see very much that could be removed without radically changing the user experience. I understand that some people don't believe reactive single page apps, that are device responsive, that have accessibility features, and that are localized for different languages are a good idea, but if you do think those things are what you want to deliver then websites aren't "bloated". They're just big. They do lots of things. The argument is less about the code and more about people railing against what the web is these days. Fair enough if that's the case, but at least make the argument that you don't like modern websites rather than try to hide it behind a claim it's about code optimization. The only exception to that is adverts. There's a ton of code delivered in websites that isn't necessary, and it's mostly for displaying ads and tracking people so the ads can be optimized for better conversion.
- catmanjan 5y ago
  The ui would have to change, but the experience doesn't need to - news sites should just be tables, not art gallerys
  - phist_mcgee 5y ago
    "should be" That's a subjective opinion. What if people who read the news want to read it like an art gallery?
  - _3u10 5y ago
    Art gallery is super complimentary, art galleries are generally curated. Whatever the modern web is is the opposite of taste. It kind of makes me want to get a giant ink jet plotter and set it up at an art gallery printing tweets / tiktoks / etc and instead of a catch bin for the prints it just goes directly into a shredder.
- clavicat 5y ago
  I see a lot that can be removed without substantially altering the user experience. Just compare Hacker News to Reddit, or Nitter to Twitter.
- _3u10 5y ago
  Here's how to make a SPA that isn't shit. https://instant.page/ https://instant.page/ https://github.com/turbolinks/turbolinks https://github.com/turbolinks/turbolinks or turbo/hotwire/stimulus. They are bloated as fuck. Go to an interview for any react job and they'll ask you about what to do when react fucks up the DOM with all its bullshit. Try making an HTML page that is just HTML and see how many millions of elements you have to have on the page until it starts acting like react. React/Angular/etc are just bloat. It's like seeing a "modern" iOS app with Dependency injection and asking yourself how often this team swaps out the database on its iOS to make DI necessary. Like what do they have in the back, a Wheel O' Database and spin it every week to find out what DB they should use until next week?
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    Not being anywhere on stack. Had to setup and fix this demo product. SPA with login and maybe 4 simple elements. Downloads something like 10 megabytes of code... And that isn't even the backend... I question what is even going on with this one. So much JavaScript for something that doesn't even do anything special. Makes me glad that my career focus is security not web development...
    - onion2k 5y ago
      Downloads something like 10 megabytes of code. I don't think many web developers would argue downloading 10MB of JS code is appropriate. The problem is that people who argue that websites are bloated often include images, video, fonts, and more in their numbers, and assets like that take up space. Most web apps are a lot smaller than 10MB. Even a giant one like Github Codespace is 'only' 8MB, and that's a full IDE and git client in your browser. If you're seeing something that's got 10MB of code in it then the developers have failed (or it's a very complex app).
      - _3u10 5y ago
        They won’t argue with it but they’ll certainly ship it.

by kiba 5y ago

It's not about the readability of code on web pages, but the fact that web pages are unnecessarily bloated in the first place. Even static page generators seem a bit too complicated at time.

onion2k 5y ago

I see this argument a lot on HN, but whenever I look at web pages (which is pretty much all day, every day) I don't see very much that could be removed without radically changing the user experience. I understand that some people don't believe reactive single page apps, that are device responsive, that have accessibility features, and that are localized for different languages are a good idea, but if you do think those things are what you want to deliver then websites aren't "bloated". They're just big. They do lots of things. The argument is less about the code and more about people railing against what the web is these days. Fair enough if that's the case, but at least make the argument that you don't like modern websites rather than try to hide it behind a claim it's about code optimization. The only exception to that is adverts. There's a ton of code delivered in websites that isn't necessary, and it's mostly for displaying ads and tracking people so the ads can be optimized for better conversion.

catmanjan 5y ago
The ui would have to change, but the experience doesn't need to - news sites should just be tables, not art gallerys
- phist_mcgee 5y ago
  "should be" That's a subjective opinion. What if people who read the news want to read it like an art gallery?
- _3u10 5y ago
  Art gallery is super complimentary, art galleries are generally curated. Whatever the modern web is is the opposite of taste. It kind of makes me want to get a giant ink jet plotter and set it up at an art gallery printing tweets / tiktoks / etc and instead of a catch bin for the prints it just goes directly into a shredder.
clavicat 5y ago
I see a lot that can be removed without substantially altering the user experience. Just compare Hacker News to Reddit, or Nitter to Twitter.
_3u10 5y ago
Here's how to make a SPA that isn't shit. https://instant.page/ https://instant.page/ https://github.com/turbolinks/turbolinks https://github.com/turbolinks/turbolinks or turbo/hotwire/stimulus. They are bloated as fuck. Go to an interview for any react job and they'll ask you about what to do when react fucks up the DOM with all its bullshit. Try making an HTML page that is just HTML and see how many millions of elements you have to have on the page until it starts acting like react. React/Angular/etc are just bloat. It's like seeing a "modern" iOS app with Dependency injection and asking yourself how often this team swaps out the database on its iOS to make DI necessary. Like what do they have in the back, a Wheel O' Database and spin it every week to find out what DB they should use until next week?
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Not being anywhere on stack. Had to setup and fix this demo product. SPA with login and maybe 4 simple elements. Downloads something like 10 megabytes of code... And that isn't even the backend... I question what is even going on with this one. So much JavaScript for something that doesn't even do anything special. Makes me glad that my career focus is security not web development...
  - onion2k 5y ago
    Downloads something like 10 megabytes of code. I don't think many web developers would argue downloading 10MB of JS code is appropriate. The problem is that people who argue that websites are bloated often include images, video, fonts, and more in their numbers, and assets like that take up space. Most web apps are a lot smaller than 10MB. Even a giant one like Github Codespace is 'only' 8MB, and that's a full IDE and git client in your browser. If you're seeing something that's got 10MB of code in it then the developers have failed (or it's a very complex app).
    - _3u10 5y ago
      They won’t argue with it but they’ll certainly ship it.