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Sure and I agree the USD at the moment has an incredible backing. Also it being the reserve currency and base for most other currencies and commodities is no sm

Sure and I agree the USD at the moment has an incredible backing. Also it being the reserve currency and base for most other currencies and commodities is no small thing. You could argue that BTC is backed by one of the most powerful networks of computing power on the planet. I don't think that's better than what the USD has, but it isn't 'Nothing'. The fact it can't be debased as easily as fiat currencies is not a tangible thing but it does compel interest in it.

arcticbull 5y ago
Its network doesn't create value, it extracts value. $60M per day, $21B per year. > The fact it can't be debased as easily as fiat currencies is not a tangible thing but it does compel interest in it. That is not a benefit to a currency, quite the opposite. A deflationary currency would likely lead to a deflationary spiral, savaging the job market [1] It also leads to a monetary system that cannot adjust to a changing population or to transient issues such as COVID. If BTC were the currency of record in 2020, the economy would likely have been utterly devastated. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/deflationary-spiral.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/deflationary-spiral.asp
- swader999 5y ago
  Maybe you are stuck on the track that there has to be a winner. There doesn't have to be a single monetary system. There can be several. And bitcoin has real utility in a lot of valid scenarios. Not having a central authority is interesting and appealing to many. Deflationary by nature makes it an excellent store of value.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    > And bitcoin has real utility in a lot of valid scenarios. Let's just wait I'm sure OP will deliver even a single one that isn't crime, regulatory capture or gambling. > Not having a central authority is interesting and appealing to many. Lots of counterproductive things are appealing to lots of people. Rolling coal is appealing to lots of people. Not getting vaccines is appealing to lots of people. That doesn't mean the benefits outweigh the costs socially, and it doesn't mean that it should be legal. > Deflationary by nature makes it an excellent store of value. And that makes it an awful currency. The fact it's a negative-sum MLM which creates no value whatsoever while creating the illusion of wealth is what makes it an awful asset. There's nothing left.
    - swader999 5y ago
      Well it just depends how much you trust the entity in control of the money and whether they will allow it for things you want. Will they let you buy a plane ride if it's your tenth trip already this year to see your sick mom in Hawaii? Maybe not, too much carbon. Control of money is control of society, even the individual if you apply a little tech to the mechanics. Trump and Hitler were both elected democratically, are you okay with either of them pulling the strings on the only thing you can exchange for your labour? What about Xi in China with their real life social credit system built by exactly who? Should that regime be trusted with that much control over that much humanity?
    - Semaphor 5y ago
      > Let's just wait I'm sure OP will deliver even a single one that isn't crime, regulatory capture or gambling. I’ll bite. Donating to a Ukrainian twitch streamer. PayPal doesn’t allow it, every other option requires entering your credit card details on potentially shady sites. Caveats: This was a few years ago, not sure what the situation is now; Current BTC tx fees make that rather expensive (which may or may not be alleviated by lightning or a cheaper to send crypto).
paulryanrogers 5y ago
It could be debased rapidly through collective regulation and enforcement. While that hasn't happened yet, at least consistently, there's no guarantee it won't happen.
- swader999 5y ago
  Its value and utility would drop but it won't be debased in a technical sense. For now the kml/amc controls for the on and off ramps are so locked down I think the powers that be are satisfied. The tin hatters say this is just a warm-up to get us primed for a centrally controlled all digital central bank backed system that can be used to better control a populations use of carbon, vaccine uptake and whatever else they want to pull your strings with. I often wonder why they tolerate crypto. I hope this isn't why.
FabHK 5y ago
> BTC is backed by one of the most powerful networks of computing power on the planet And that huge computing power is employed to basically solve Sudokus whose difficulty is adjusted to burn as much energy as is put into it (which unscrupulous people will do as long as that energy is still cheaper than the mining rewards).
- swader999 5y ago
  It appears that's the case but I've read a lot of bitcoin is mined using power sources that are under utilized and otherwise not practical to keep using. Much off this includes green energy which might have a better ROI in its early stages with bitcoin hovering it up when it's excess can't be sold. It's fairly easy to just switch to proof of stake though if ever this issue is forced hard enough by energy providers.

arcticbull 5y ago

Its network doesn't create value, it extracts value. $60M per day, $21B per year. > The fact it can't be debased as easily as fiat currencies is not a tangible thing but it does compel interest in it. That is not a benefit to a currency, quite the opposite. A deflationary currency would likely lead to a deflationary spiral, savaging the job market [1] It also leads to a monetary system that cannot adjust to a changing population or to transient issues such as COVID. If BTC were the currency of record in 2020, the economy would likely have been utterly devastated. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/deflationary-spiral.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/deflationary-spiral.asp

swader999 5y ago
Maybe you are stuck on the track that there has to be a winner. There doesn't have to be a single monetary system. There can be several. And bitcoin has real utility in a lot of valid scenarios. Not having a central authority is interesting and appealing to many. Deflationary by nature makes it an excellent store of value.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  > And bitcoin has real utility in a lot of valid scenarios. Let's just wait I'm sure OP will deliver even a single one that isn't crime, regulatory capture or gambling. > Not having a central authority is interesting and appealing to many. Lots of counterproductive things are appealing to lots of people. Rolling coal is appealing to lots of people. Not getting vaccines is appealing to lots of people. That doesn't mean the benefits outweigh the costs socially, and it doesn't mean that it should be legal. > Deflationary by nature makes it an excellent store of value. And that makes it an awful currency. The fact it's a negative-sum MLM which creates no value whatsoever while creating the illusion of wealth is what makes it an awful asset. There's nothing left.
  - swader999 5y ago
    Well it just depends how much you trust the entity in control of the money and whether they will allow it for things you want. Will they let you buy a plane ride if it's your tenth trip already this year to see your sick mom in Hawaii? Maybe not, too much carbon. Control of money is control of society, even the individual if you apply a little tech to the mechanics. Trump and Hitler were both elected democratically, are you okay with either of them pulling the strings on the only thing you can exchange for your labour? What about Xi in China with their real life social credit system built by exactly who? Should that regime be trusted with that much control over that much humanity?
  - Semaphor 5y ago
    > Let's just wait I'm sure OP will deliver even a single one that isn't crime, regulatory capture or gambling. I’ll bite. Donating to a Ukrainian twitch streamer. PayPal doesn’t allow it, every other option requires entering your credit card details on potentially shady sites. Caveats: This was a few years ago, not sure what the situation is now; Current BTC tx fees make that rather expensive (which may or may not be alleviated by lightning or a cheaper to send crypto).

paulryanrogers 5y ago

It could be debased rapidly through collective regulation and enforcement. While that hasn't happened yet, at least consistently, there's no guarantee it won't happen.

swader999 5y ago
Its value and utility would drop but it won't be debased in a technical sense. For now the kml/amc controls for the on and off ramps are so locked down I think the powers that be are satisfied. The tin hatters say this is just a warm-up to get us primed for a centrally controlled all digital central bank backed system that can be used to better control a populations use of carbon, vaccine uptake and whatever else they want to pull your strings with. I often wonder why they tolerate crypto. I hope this isn't why.

FabHK 5y ago

> BTC is backed by one of the most powerful networks of computing power on the planet And that huge computing power is employed to basically solve Sudokus whose difficulty is adjusted to burn as much energy as is put into it (which unscrupulous people will do as long as that energy is still cheaper than the mining rewards).

swader999 5y ago
It appears that's the case but I've read a lot of bitcoin is mined using power sources that are under utilized and otherwise not practical to keep using. Much off this includes green energy which might have a better ROI in its early stages with bitcoin hovering it up when it's excess can't be sold. It's fairly easy to just switch to proof of stake though if ever this issue is forced hard enough by energy providers.