4 ms·

In the case of the USD, the existence of a powerful government with a variety of powers (including coercive ones). Nothing is guaranteed in life, but it is orde

by adamc 5y ago

In the case of the USD, the existence of a powerful government with a variety of powers (including coercive ones). Nothing is guaranteed in life, but it is orders of magnitude different from a digital currency offered by private individuals.

swader999 5y ago
Sure and I agree the USD at the moment has an incredible backing. Also it being the reserve currency and base for most other currencies and commodities is no small thing. You could argue that BTC is backed by one of the most powerful networks of computing power on the planet. I don't think that's better than what the USD has, but it isn't 'Nothing'. The fact it can't be debased as easily as fiat currencies is not a tangible thing but it does compel interest in it.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  Its network doesn't create value, it extracts value. $60M per day, $21B per year. > The fact it can't be debased as easily as fiat currencies is not a tangible thing but it does compel interest in it. That is not a benefit to a currency, quite the opposite. A deflationary currency would likely lead to a deflationary spiral, savaging the job market [1] It also leads to a monetary system that cannot adjust to a changing population or to transient issues such as COVID. If BTC were the currency of record in 2020, the economy would likely have been utterly devastated. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/deflationary-spiral.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/deflationary-spiral.asp
  - swader999 5y ago
    Maybe you are stuck on the track that there has to be a winner. There doesn't have to be a single monetary system. There can be several. And bitcoin has real utility in a lot of valid scenarios. Not having a central authority is interesting and appealing to many. Deflationary by nature makes it an excellent store of value.
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      > And bitcoin has real utility in a lot of valid scenarios. Let's just wait I'm sure OP will deliver even a single one that isn't crime, regulatory capture or gambling. > Not having a central authority is interesting and appealing to many. Lots of counterproductive things are appealing to lots of people. Rolling coal is appealing to lots of people. Not getting vaccines is appealing to lots of people. That doesn't mean the benefits outweigh the costs socially, and it doesn't mean that it should be legal. > Deflationary by nature makes it an excellent store of value. And that makes it an awful currency. The fact it's a negative-sum MLM which creates no value whatsoever while creating the illusion of wealth is what makes it an awful asset. There's nothing left.
      - swader999 5y ago
        Well it just depends how much you trust the entity in control of the money and whether they will allow it for things you want. Will they let you buy a plane ride if it's your tenth trip already this year to see your sick mom in Hawaii? Maybe not, too much carbon. Control of money is control of society, even the individual if you apply a little tech to the mechanics. Trump and Hitler were both elected democratically, are you okay with either of them pulling the strings on the only thing you can exchange for your labour? What about Xi in China with their real life social credit system built by exactly who? Should that regime be trusted with that much control over that much humanity?
      - Semaphor 5y ago
        > Let's just wait I'm sure OP will deliver even a single one that isn't crime, regulatory capture or gambling. I’ll bite. Donating to a Ukrainian twitch streamer. PayPal doesn’t allow it, every other option requires entering your credit card details on potentially shady sites. Caveats: This was a few years ago, not sure what the situation is now; Current BTC tx fees make that rather expensive (which may or may not be alleviated by lightning or a cheaper to send crypto).
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  It could be debased rapidly through collective regulation and enforcement. While that hasn't happened yet, at least consistently, there's no guarantee it won't happen.
  - swader999 5y ago
    Its value and utility would drop but it won't be debased in a technical sense. For now the kml/amc controls for the on and off ramps are so locked down I think the powers that be are satisfied. The tin hatters say this is just a warm-up to get us primed for a centrally controlled all digital central bank backed system that can be used to better control a populations use of carbon, vaccine uptake and whatever else they want to pull your strings with. I often wonder why they tolerate crypto. I hope this isn't why.
- FabHK 5y ago
  > BTC is backed by one of the most powerful networks of computing power on the planet And that huge computing power is employed to basically solve Sudokus whose difficulty is adjusted to burn as much energy as is put into it (which unscrupulous people will do as long as that energy is still cheaper than the mining rewards).
  - swader999 5y ago
    It appears that's the case but I've read a lot of bitcoin is mined using power sources that are under utilized and otherwise not practical to keep using. Much off this includes green energy which might have a better ROI in its early stages with bitcoin hovering it up when it's excess can't be sold. It's fairly easy to just switch to proof of stake though if ever this issue is forced hard enough by energy providers.
anonporridge 5y ago
Yes, the USD is backed by the most absurd proof of violence the world has ever seen. No organization of human civilization has ever been able to summon as much death and despair as the United States. However, most of the ability of the United States to execute such power is centralized in Washington D.C. and New England. Centralization brings immense efficiency, but also vulnerability. Those geographic regions are a potential target that takes a lot of energy to defend. Why do you think the 9/11 terrorists chose New York and D.C.? Meanwhile, China just fully outlawed cryptocurrency and mining, and it was a minor hiccup in the network. Bitcoin's hash rate as already recovered. The price has doubled. It's stronger than it's ever been. That's what makes bitcoin such a potentially powerful store of value. It's security mechanism is incredibly anti-fragile. There's no throat anyone can choke. It's also globally available and permissionless, so it accepts everyone and anyone without judgement. These traits are powerful, in a different way than the power that backs the USD. That's why bitcoin matters.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  > Yes, the USD is backed by the most absurd proof of violence the world has ever seen. No organization of human civilization has ever been able to summon as much death and despair as the United States. That has nothing to do with the currency. I'm not saying its good, or bad, I'm saying you've stapled together two unrelated concepts. The US army is a small fraction of GDP and exists to support the defense of the US as a nation, and to further its interests abroad. That will remain the case whether the currency is fiat, gold, BTC or shoelaces. Unless you think that the army will be disbanded because BTC is going to make Xi Jinping come to the table with Tsai Ing-Wen over Baijiu and apologize, that the Sudanese are going to lay down their arms, Kim Jong-un is going to find Jesus and so on. However that's completely unfounded. The US army predates the fiat dollar by two hundred years. World wars were fought on the gold standard. Further, the backing of dollars is only in limited part due to "the army" - fractional reserve lending means that each time supply is added, demand for that supply is also created as the loan issued must be repaid with those same dollars. This is what actually fully backs the dollar. It's also why countries that use the USD, like El Salvador, have their own armies. And why some countries that use fiat dollars don't have armies at all, like Japan and Iceland. There is no causative relationship between fiat money and armies. There is a causative relationship between the existence of militaristic states and armies. There are hundreds of years of proof that the backing of the currency has little or no bearing. This theory is a pile of misconceptions stacked on top of each other.

by adamc 5y ago

swader999 5y ago

Sure and I agree the USD at the moment has an incredible backing. Also it being the reserve currency and base for most other currencies and commodities is no small thing. You could argue that BTC is backed by one of the most powerful networks of computing power on the planet. I don't think that's better than what the USD has, but it isn't 'Nothing'. The fact it can't be debased as easily as fiat currencies is not a tangible thing but it does compel interest in it.

arcticbull 5y ago
Its network doesn't create value, it extracts value. $60M per day, $21B per year. > The fact it can't be debased as easily as fiat currencies is not a tangible thing but it does compel interest in it. That is not a benefit to a currency, quite the opposite. A deflationary currency would likely lead to a deflationary spiral, savaging the job market [1] It also leads to a monetary system that cannot adjust to a changing population or to transient issues such as COVID. If BTC were the currency of record in 2020, the economy would likely have been utterly devastated. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/deflationary-spiral.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/deflationary-spiral.asp
- swader999 5y ago
  Maybe you are stuck on the track that there has to be a winner. There doesn't have to be a single monetary system. There can be several. And bitcoin has real utility in a lot of valid scenarios. Not having a central authority is interesting and appealing to many. Deflationary by nature makes it an excellent store of value.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    > And bitcoin has real utility in a lot of valid scenarios. Let's just wait I'm sure OP will deliver even a single one that isn't crime, regulatory capture or gambling. > Not having a central authority is interesting and appealing to many. Lots of counterproductive things are appealing to lots of people. Rolling coal is appealing to lots of people. Not getting vaccines is appealing to lots of people. That doesn't mean the benefits outweigh the costs socially, and it doesn't mean that it should be legal. > Deflationary by nature makes it an excellent store of value. And that makes it an awful currency. The fact it's a negative-sum MLM which creates no value whatsoever while creating the illusion of wealth is what makes it an awful asset. There's nothing left.
    - swader999 5y ago
      Well it just depends how much you trust the entity in control of the money and whether they will allow it for things you want. Will they let you buy a plane ride if it's your tenth trip already this year to see your sick mom in Hawaii? Maybe not, too much carbon. Control of money is control of society, even the individual if you apply a little tech to the mechanics. Trump and Hitler were both elected democratically, are you okay with either of them pulling the strings on the only thing you can exchange for your labour? What about Xi in China with their real life social credit system built by exactly who? Should that regime be trusted with that much control over that much humanity?
    - Semaphor 5y ago
      > Let's just wait I'm sure OP will deliver even a single one that isn't crime, regulatory capture or gambling. I’ll bite. Donating to a Ukrainian twitch streamer. PayPal doesn’t allow it, every other option requires entering your credit card details on potentially shady sites. Caveats: This was a few years ago, not sure what the situation is now; Current BTC tx fees make that rather expensive (which may or may not be alleviated by lightning or a cheaper to send crypto).
paulryanrogers 5y ago
It could be debased rapidly through collective regulation and enforcement. While that hasn't happened yet, at least consistently, there's no guarantee it won't happen.
- swader999 5y ago
  Its value and utility would drop but it won't be debased in a technical sense. For now the kml/amc controls for the on and off ramps are so locked down I think the powers that be are satisfied. The tin hatters say this is just a warm-up to get us primed for a centrally controlled all digital central bank backed system that can be used to better control a populations use of carbon, vaccine uptake and whatever else they want to pull your strings with. I often wonder why they tolerate crypto. I hope this isn't why.
FabHK 5y ago
> BTC is backed by one of the most powerful networks of computing power on the planet And that huge computing power is employed to basically solve Sudokus whose difficulty is adjusted to burn as much energy as is put into it (which unscrupulous people will do as long as that energy is still cheaper than the mining rewards).
- swader999 5y ago
  It appears that's the case but I've read a lot of bitcoin is mined using power sources that are under utilized and otherwise not practical to keep using. Much off this includes green energy which might have a better ROI in its early stages with bitcoin hovering it up when it's excess can't be sold. It's fairly easy to just switch to proof of stake though if ever this issue is forced hard enough by energy providers.

anonporridge 5y ago

Yes, the USD is backed by the most absurd proof of violence the world has ever seen. No organization of human civilization has ever been able to summon as much death and despair as the United States. However, most of the ability of the United States to execute such power is centralized in Washington D.C. and New England. Centralization brings immense efficiency, but also vulnerability. Those geographic regions are a potential target that takes a lot of energy to defend. Why do you think the 9/11 terrorists chose New York and D.C.? Meanwhile, China just fully outlawed cryptocurrency and mining, and it was a minor hiccup in the network. Bitcoin's hash rate as already recovered. The price has doubled. It's stronger than it's ever been. That's what makes bitcoin such a potentially powerful store of value. It's security mechanism is incredibly anti-fragile. There's no throat anyone can choke. It's also globally available and permissionless, so it accepts everyone and anyone without judgement. These traits are powerful, in a different way than the power that backs the USD. That's why bitcoin matters.

arcticbull 5y ago
> Yes, the USD is backed by the most absurd proof of violence the world has ever seen. No organization of human civilization has ever been able to summon as much death and despair as the United States. That has nothing to do with the currency. I'm not saying its good, or bad, I'm saying you've stapled together two unrelated concepts. The US army is a small fraction of GDP and exists to support the defense of the US as a nation, and to further its interests abroad. That will remain the case whether the currency is fiat, gold, BTC or shoelaces. Unless you think that the army will be disbanded because BTC is going to make Xi Jinping come to the table with Tsai Ing-Wen over Baijiu and apologize, that the Sudanese are going to lay down their arms, Kim Jong-un is going to find Jesus and so on. However that's completely unfounded. The US army predates the fiat dollar by two hundred years. World wars were fought on the gold standard. Further, the backing of dollars is only in limited part due to "the army" - fractional reserve lending means that each time supply is added, demand for that supply is also created as the loan issued must be repaid with those same dollars. This is what actually fully backs the dollar. It's also why countries that use the USD, like El Salvador, have their own armies. And why some countries that use fiat dollars don't have armies at all, like Japan and Iceland. There is no causative relationship between fiat money and armies. There is a causative relationship between the existence of militaristic states and armies. There are hundreds of years of proof that the backing of the currency has little or no bearing. This theory is a pile of misconceptions stacked on top of each other.