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Crypto "expert" here. We will have a catastrophic crash, it's normal and natural. But, the tech is here to stay and is 100x better than existing solutions. Cryp

by spir 5y ago

Crypto "expert" here. We will have a catastrophic crash, it's normal and natural. But, the tech is here to stay and is 100x better than existing solutions. Crypto is changing the world, one crash at a time :)

TomSwirly 5y ago
> 100x better than existing solutions. And after ten years, there isn't one actual application of cryptocurrencies except for speculation and crime.
- spir 5y ago
  I'm with you, where are the actual applications? I'd say this criticism was mostly fair up until about two years ago. Within the last two years, the actual applications have flourished. For example, have a look through this list https://defipulse.com/ https://defipulse.com/ If you remain skeptical, that's fair. The good news is, Ethereum is reaching adulthood this year by switching to proof of stake and launching the web of layer-2 networks. Within another three years or so, the "actual applications" will become so ubiquitous as to be impossible to ignore.
  - lvl100 5y ago
    This is just pathetic.
    - spir 5y ago
      There's a large subset of the talented people on HN that were wrong about crypto years ago-- they couldn't see that the casino and the innovation are, unfortunately, inseparable-- and many now cling to their original incorrect points of view, even as crypto is clearly changing the world like the internet did in the 90s and mobile in the 00s. I have been full-time in crypto for years. I could write you a 10,000-word essay on crypto's promising use cases. But, I believe that you, and many others on HN, don't want to hear it. That's too bad, because you guys grew up on sci-fi and rigor, and now you're ignoring that crypto is both rigorously successful and cypherpunk sci-fi come to life.
      - lvl100 5y ago
        It’s pathetic because you’re just writing nonsense and can’t even describe anything practically productive about crypto. None. By the way, I could ALSO write you 10,000 word salad about how commonly found stones can solve the wrongs in modern finance. That doesn’t say anything about common stones. It just says modern finance is FLAWED.
        sanderjd 5y ago
        You are not showing yourself to be a person that it is worthwhile for this person to waste time on. There are other people in this thread with your point of view but who are commenting in good faith, rather than in bad faith like you are.
        Igelau 5y ago
        Bad faith involves deliberately hiding some truth. It doesn't mean "thing you call someone when you can't win the argument". And I suspect you know that, which means... ;)
        sanderjd 5y ago
        That is one kind of bad faith argument but there are others. In this case it is asserting that something is some adjective ("pathetic"), getting a response, and then just reasserting the same thing without responding to the response.
        Igelau 5y ago
        It was a bit brusque. I think that's the word you're looking for. If that's what bad faith means to you (which still seems a stretch of the definition so you can get the guidelines invoked and win the internet) then both sides of the discussion are guilty of this. On the other side of the aisle, we have people pointing out that there aren't any interesting dApps, with the reply being: "Sure there are! Here's a list dApps that are just more layers on moving cryptocurrency!" That's only interesting if you assume the blockchain is valuable and interesting. This is a circular argument. Do you have anything better? "Sure do! Here's a list dApps that are just more layers on moving cryptocurrency! Register on this site to hear me talk about NFTs!" Is that "bad faith" too? I don't think so. There's a divide though, and it's a tiresome one. Some of us think the emperor has no clothes. Others think they are the best clothes ever. We probably all need our eyes checked.
    - sanderjd 5y ago
      Which part? Could you say more? If you make a comment like this, I feel like it should be obvious what you mean, but it isn't at all obvious to me in this case.
      - midev 5y ago
        The part where they said 10 years later there is still no actual applications or use, and someone responded with https://defipulse.com/ https://defipulse.com/ I think if a self-proclaimed crypto expert gives you this link as proof of use cases, you would walk away thinking the technology was pathetic.
  - santiagobasulto 5y ago
    Thanks for that link. I've been long on BTC since the beginning, and I fully love the concept of crypto. But busy with work (and I sold my startup 2 years ago) I went completely dark on the Crypto world. Now I'm trying to catch up with it and both DeFi and everything Layer 2 seem to be the future. Do you have any other resources to recommend?
    - spir 5y ago
      My pleasure! I'd recommend the Bankless podcast and newsletter https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ https://podcast.banklesshq.com/ https://podcast.banklesshq.com/
      - epinephrinios 5y ago
        The Daily Gwei (https://www.youtube.com/c/TheDailyGwei https://www.youtube.com/c/TheDailyGwei) is great for catching up with news. Also the ROLLUP series from Bankless (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooIZzpOsoko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooIZzpOsoko)
  - rory 5y ago
    I've tried to remain open minded for a long time on this issue, but honestly that list still looks really bad. At a glance, all the top companies seem to only be useful for coin trading/borrowing/lending/financialization. Do you have any example of a use case with traction that serves a need not created by the existence of the cryptocurrency market itself?
    - spir 5y ago
      For example, Eco is a non-crypto app that seeks to compete with CashApp, Venmo, and Apple Pay. Although Eco is a fully non-crypto app, it is built on top of crypto rails. Eco offers its users greater savings rates than traditional banks by using crypto to literally cut out the middlemen. As well, Eco accounts are not FDIC insured-- but, I think that's a temporary downside of the current regulatory landscape. It seems like there's no reason why Eco accounts couldn't be FDIC insured in the future. Happily, the benefit of cutting out the middlemen is forever. https://www.eco.com/ https://www.eco.com/ The Eco team has written a lot about their experience disintermediating banks. I recommend their blog https://www.eco.com/blog https://www.eco.com/blog
  - Igelau 5y ago
    Let's have a look at the top five. > a decentralized credit platform > a decentralized exchange liquidity pool > an open source, decentralized, non-custodial liquidity protocol > a smart wallet with an intuitive interface built on top of popular DeFi projects > an algorithmic money market protocol This is a circular argument for the utility of dApps. There's nothing here for someone who isn't already interested in cryptocurrency.
    - spir 5y ago
      I think that's fair because right now, most or almost all crypto apps are circular. Yet, I have found it useful to try and separate the fundamental innovations from the current set of assets being manipulated. Here is a partial list of fundamental crypto innovations: - non-custodial wallets in general to protect people from predatory institutions or governments - smart contracts that always do what they say they'll do - inherent global jurisdiction of blockchains, ie. borderless - vastly reduced transaction costs to stand up and operate new, networked financial instruments and other kinds of digital asset systems (property registries, etc.) The fact that these innovations are currently majority operated on dog money, Bitcoin, ETH, etc. is a temporary characteristic of this early stage of crypto's growth. In the future, these same innovations will operate on everything in the economy. For example, Tesla stock (backed by custodially-held physical shares, not synthetics) has been available on Solana for some time.
      - ryan_lane 5y ago
        > non-custodial wallets in general to protect people from predatory institutions or governments You can do that now by hiding money in your mattress. In both cases, it's not on you to protect your money, and a lot of people who are tech savvy have been failing to do so. Regular folks are going to get robbed often. > smart contracts that always do what they say they'll do Except when they don't, because they have a bug, and all the money is stolen. > inherent global jurisdiction of blockchains, ie. borderless This is only true if you are able to spend the money as cryptocurrency. Once you try converting that into fiat, you start hitting those borders really quickly. > vastly reduced transaction costs Except that the transaction costs are higher, on average, and especially so if you consider the fees for converting from fiat, and back to fiat. > Tesla stock (backed by custodially-held physical shares, not synthetics) has been available on Solana for some time Sure, but a financial institute is holding those shares. You could cut the middle-man here (the cryptocurrency) and just use the financial institution.
- mediocregopher 5y ago
  I buy legal goods with them. Just because you don't _want_ to use them doesn't mean no one else does.
  - bduerst 5y ago
    Do you really? Or does your binance/coinbase debit card convert your crypto to USD and send dollars out via ACH?
    - blhack 5y ago
      Why would that matter? Do you believe that you aren't transacting with USD when you buy something using the VISA network? Or with apple pay? Or a check?
      - austingulati 5y ago
        The purpose of the VISA network, Apple pay, and checks is to transact with USD.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - bduerst 5y ago
        It matters because you're not using crypto to pay, you're paying US dollars (over ACH). Same with VISA, Apple Pay, and personal checks.
- icelancer 5y ago
  I've responded to several commenters who say this with my real world examples, the most notable of which are paying people in Venezuela to do work for me when most mainstream forms of monetary exchange are nearly impossible in/out of that country.
  - elliekelly 5y ago
    Have you considered that the difficulty of transacting might be by design?
    - icelancer 5y ago
      I have. I also don't respect them.
  - lentil_soup 5y ago
    Venezuelan here. You're exaggerating the use of bitcoin in Venezuela. You might have paid some people with it but on the streets you use and want USD. Zelle, PayPal or USD in cash. No one wants another volatile currency, we've had enough of those.
    - werdnapk 5y ago
      Is it true that parts of Venezuala are using flecks of gold as currency? Or is that just highly localized in usage and/or mostly in remote areas?
      - lentil_soup 5y ago
        I have not heard of that to be honest. What does happen is you might settle change with random stuff. Say you buy groceries for $8.50. You might pay half with a transfer in bolivares (local currency) and the rest with a $5 bill. Then they'll give you back a chocolate and a bar of soap as change as they might not have enough. It's bizarre
    - icelancer 5y ago
      I am, uh, paying two contractors in Venezuela in cryptocurrency (not BTC) by their request. Not sure how I'm exaggerating it. Unless you think I'm only paying one contractor, I guess.
- blhack 5y ago
  Are you somebody who believes that finance generally is not useful? Traditional financial institutions also more or less shuffle USD around. Crypto is that.
- knz 5y ago
  > And after ten years, there isn't one actual application of cryptocurrencies except for speculation and crime. Remittances - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittance There is a vast market for efficient, fast, and affordable methods of transferring money/wealth across political boundaries. Blockchain/crypto seems to be filling that niche for many people, myself included, without "speculation and crime" being a factor. There is no "remittance app" for it because you can do it with your pick of various widely available crypto coins and exchanges.
mminer237 5y ago
The only practical differences in the tech is that it wastes more power, has no insurance, has no fraud remediation, and has no safeguard against volatility. I guess the potential anonymity too, but that's only really a practical benefit if making an illegal transaction. The only time I can ever see a cryptocurrency being worth it is if you do not have any central authority you can trust. If we ever get to the point where you can't trust the courts to somewhat reasonably protect your money, then I think we have worse problems. Especially since you wouldn't have any physical protection from the legal system.
- asdfsd234234444 5y ago
  Comments like this make me believe that Crypto still has a ways to run up because most people still do not understand it yet - or at least not the full breadth of stuff that is happening in the industry.
- epinephrinios 5y ago
  I can protect my own money, thank you. I do not need a nanny. Anonymity might seem redundant to you and other people who "have nothing to hide". However, in a slightly more dystopian reality -e.g. when we are forced to use CBDCs- the government might choose to block you from using your hard earned money because you posted a criticism of the president on twitter.
  - seoaeu 5y ago
    > the government might choose to block you from using your hard earned money because you posted a criticism of the president on twitter Um, I don't really see how cryptocurrencies are going to help you much when that same government just tosses you in jail instead. In fact, there are governments in our present reality that will throw people in jail for saying the wrong thing on twitter, so that really isn't an outrageous thing to imagine.
    - Acrobatic_Road 5y ago
      I'm sure the government would love to throw Edward Snowden in jail, but he is out of their reach. They would love to shut down Wikileaks and Sci-Hub too. On the other hand, governments can very easily weaponize financial services to deny people the ability to send individuals and organizations money - which is how Wikileaks found itself digitally embargoed by Visa, PayPal and Mastercard. Not so with cryptocurrencies. Cryptocurrencies can also provide anonymity to financial donors who would otherwise be targeted themselves for sending money to a party like Wikileaks.
tootie 5y ago
I feel like if you look at the last 20 years and don't fall on knees at the Church of Fiat, then you have no idea what you're talking about. Crypto doesn't solve any urgent problems and is contributing to climate change as a bonus. Who is making use of crypto right now except crypto speculators and money launderers?
sizzle 5y ago
Can’t wait to buy the dip, missed out on Eth <$500

by spir 5y ago

TomSwirly 5y ago

> 100x better than existing solutions. And after ten years, there isn't one actual application of cryptocurrencies except for speculation and crime.

spir 5y ago
I'm with you, where are the actual applications? I'd say this criticism was mostly fair up until about two years ago. Within the last two years, the actual applications have flourished. For example, have a look through this list https://defipulse.com/ https://defipulse.com/ If you remain skeptical, that's fair. The good news is, Ethereum is reaching adulthood this year by switching to proof of stake and launching the web of layer-2 networks. Within another three years or so, the "actual applications" will become so ubiquitous as to be impossible to ignore.
- lvl100 5y ago
  This is just pathetic.
  - spir 5y ago
    There's a large subset of the talented people on HN that were wrong about crypto years ago-- they couldn't see that the casino and the innovation are, unfortunately, inseparable-- and many now cling to their original incorrect points of view, even as crypto is clearly changing the world like the internet did in the 90s and mobile in the 00s. I have been full-time in crypto for years. I could write you a 10,000-word essay on crypto's promising use cases. But, I believe that you, and many others on HN, don't want to hear it. That's too bad, because you guys grew up on sci-fi and rigor, and now you're ignoring that crypto is both rigorously successful and cypherpunk sci-fi come to life.
    - lvl100 5y ago
      It’s pathetic because you’re just writing nonsense and can’t even describe anything practically productive about crypto. None. By the way, I could ALSO write you 10,000 word salad about how commonly found stones can solve the wrongs in modern finance. That doesn’t say anything about common stones. It just says modern finance is FLAWED.
      - sanderjd 5y ago
        You are not showing yourself to be a person that it is worthwhile for this person to waste time on. There are other people in this thread with your point of view but who are commenting in good faith, rather than in bad faith like you are.
        Igelau 5y ago
        Bad faith involves deliberately hiding some truth. It doesn't mean "thing you call someone when you can't win the argument". And I suspect you know that, which means... ;)
        sanderjd 5y ago
        That is one kind of bad faith argument but there are others. In this case it is asserting that something is some adjective ("pathetic"), getting a response, and then just reasserting the same thing without responding to the response.
        Igelau 5y ago
        It was a bit brusque. I think that's the word you're looking for. If that's what bad faith means to you (which still seems a stretch of the definition so you can get the guidelines invoked and win the internet) then both sides of the discussion are guilty of this. On the other side of the aisle, we have people pointing out that there aren't any interesting dApps, with the reply being: "Sure there are! Here's a list dApps that are just more layers on moving cryptocurrency!" That's only interesting if you assume the blockchain is valuable and interesting. This is a circular argument. Do you have anything better? "Sure do! Here's a list dApps that are just more layers on moving cryptocurrency! Register on this site to hear me talk about NFTs!" Is that "bad faith" too? I don't think so. There's a divide though, and it's a tiresome one. Some of us think the emperor has no clothes. Others think they are the best clothes ever. We probably all need our eyes checked.
  - sanderjd 5y ago
    Which part? Could you say more? If you make a comment like this, I feel like it should be obvious what you mean, but it isn't at all obvious to me in this case.
    - midev 5y ago
      The part where they said 10 years later there is still no actual applications or use, and someone responded with https://defipulse.com/ https://defipulse.com/ I think if a self-proclaimed crypto expert gives you this link as proof of use cases, you would walk away thinking the technology was pathetic.
- santiagobasulto 5y ago
  Thanks for that link. I've been long on BTC since the beginning, and I fully love the concept of crypto. But busy with work (and I sold my startup 2 years ago) I went completely dark on the Crypto world. Now I'm trying to catch up with it and both DeFi and everything Layer 2 seem to be the future. Do you have any other resources to recommend?
  - spir 5y ago
    My pleasure! I'd recommend the Bankless podcast and newsletter https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ https://podcast.banklesshq.com/ https://podcast.banklesshq.com/
    - epinephrinios 5y ago
      The Daily Gwei (https://www.youtube.com/c/TheDailyGwei https://www.youtube.com/c/TheDailyGwei) is great for catching up with news. Also the ROLLUP series from Bankless (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooIZzpOsoko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooIZzpOsoko)
- rory 5y ago
  I've tried to remain open minded for a long time on this issue, but honestly that list still looks really bad. At a glance, all the top companies seem to only be useful for coin trading/borrowing/lending/financialization. Do you have any example of a use case with traction that serves a need not created by the existence of the cryptocurrency market itself?
  - spir 5y ago
    For example, Eco is a non-crypto app that seeks to compete with CashApp, Venmo, and Apple Pay. Although Eco is a fully non-crypto app, it is built on top of crypto rails. Eco offers its users greater savings rates than traditional banks by using crypto to literally cut out the middlemen. As well, Eco accounts are not FDIC insured-- but, I think that's a temporary downside of the current regulatory landscape. It seems like there's no reason why Eco accounts couldn't be FDIC insured in the future. Happily, the benefit of cutting out the middlemen is forever. https://www.eco.com/ https://www.eco.com/ The Eco team has written a lot about their experience disintermediating banks. I recommend their blog https://www.eco.com/blog https://www.eco.com/blog
- Igelau 5y ago
  Let's have a look at the top five. > a decentralized credit platform > a decentralized exchange liquidity pool > an open source, decentralized, non-custodial liquidity protocol > a smart wallet with an intuitive interface built on top of popular DeFi projects > an algorithmic money market protocol This is a circular argument for the utility of dApps. There's nothing here for someone who isn't already interested in cryptocurrency.
  - spir 5y ago
    I think that's fair because right now, most or almost all crypto apps are circular. Yet, I have found it useful to try and separate the fundamental innovations from the current set of assets being manipulated. Here is a partial list of fundamental crypto innovations: - non-custodial wallets in general to protect people from predatory institutions or governments - smart contracts that always do what they say they'll do - inherent global jurisdiction of blockchains, ie. borderless - vastly reduced transaction costs to stand up and operate new, networked financial instruments and other kinds of digital asset systems (property registries, etc.) The fact that these innovations are currently majority operated on dog money, Bitcoin, ETH, etc. is a temporary characteristic of this early stage of crypto's growth. In the future, these same innovations will operate on everything in the economy. For example, Tesla stock (backed by custodially-held physical shares, not synthetics) has been available on Solana for some time.
    - ryan_lane 5y ago
      > non-custodial wallets in general to protect people from predatory institutions or governments You can do that now by hiding money in your mattress. In both cases, it's not on you to protect your money, and a lot of people who are tech savvy have been failing to do so. Regular folks are going to get robbed often. > smart contracts that always do what they say they'll do Except when they don't, because they have a bug, and all the money is stolen. > inherent global jurisdiction of blockchains, ie. borderless This is only true if you are able to spend the money as cryptocurrency. Once you try converting that into fiat, you start hitting those borders really quickly. > vastly reduced transaction costs Except that the transaction costs are higher, on average, and especially so if you consider the fees for converting from fiat, and back to fiat. > Tesla stock (backed by custodially-held physical shares, not synthetics) has been available on Solana for some time Sure, but a financial institute is holding those shares. You could cut the middle-man here (the cryptocurrency) and just use the financial institution.
mediocregopher 5y ago
I buy legal goods with them. Just because you don't _want_ to use them doesn't mean no one else does.
- bduerst 5y ago
  Do you really? Or does your binance/coinbase debit card convert your crypto to USD and send dollars out via ACH?
  - blhack 5y ago
    Why would that matter? Do you believe that you aren't transacting with USD when you buy something using the VISA network? Or with apple pay? Or a check?
    - austingulati 5y ago
      The purpose of the VISA network, Apple pay, and checks is to transact with USD.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - bduerst 5y ago
      It matters because you're not using crypto to pay, you're paying US dollars (over ACH). Same with VISA, Apple Pay, and personal checks.
icelancer 5y ago
I've responded to several commenters who say this with my real world examples, the most notable of which are paying people in Venezuela to do work for me when most mainstream forms of monetary exchange are nearly impossible in/out of that country.
- elliekelly 5y ago
  Have you considered that the difficulty of transacting might be by design?
  - icelancer 5y ago
    I have. I also don't respect them.
- lentil_soup 5y ago
  Venezuelan here. You're exaggerating the use of bitcoin in Venezuela. You might have paid some people with it but on the streets you use and want USD. Zelle, PayPal or USD in cash. No one wants another volatile currency, we've had enough of those.
  - werdnapk 5y ago
    Is it true that parts of Venezuala are using flecks of gold as currency? Or is that just highly localized in usage and/or mostly in remote areas?
    - lentil_soup 5y ago
      I have not heard of that to be honest. What does happen is you might settle change with random stuff. Say you buy groceries for $8.50. You might pay half with a transfer in bolivares (local currency) and the rest with a $5 bill. Then they'll give you back a chocolate and a bar of soap as change as they might not have enough. It's bizarre
  - icelancer 5y ago
    I am, uh, paying two contractors in Venezuela in cryptocurrency (not BTC) by their request. Not sure how I'm exaggerating it. Unless you think I'm only paying one contractor, I guess.
blhack 5y ago
Are you somebody who believes that finance generally is not useful? Traditional financial institutions also more or less shuffle USD around. Crypto is that.
knz 5y ago
> And after ten years, there isn't one actual application of cryptocurrencies except for speculation and crime. Remittances - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittance There is a vast market for efficient, fast, and affordable methods of transferring money/wealth across political boundaries. Blockchain/crypto seems to be filling that niche for many people, myself included, without "speculation and crime" being a factor. There is no "remittance app" for it because you can do it with your pick of various widely available crypto coins and exchanges.

mminer237 5y ago

The only practical differences in the tech is that it wastes more power, has no insurance, has no fraud remediation, and has no safeguard against volatility. I guess the potential anonymity too, but that's only really a practical benefit if making an illegal transaction. The only time I can ever see a cryptocurrency being worth it is if you do not have any central authority you can trust. If we ever get to the point where you can't trust the courts to somewhat reasonably protect your money, then I think we have worse problems. Especially since you wouldn't have any physical protection from the legal system.

asdfsd234234444 5y ago
Comments like this make me believe that Crypto still has a ways to run up because most people still do not understand it yet - or at least not the full breadth of stuff that is happening in the industry.
epinephrinios 5y ago
I can protect my own money, thank you. I do not need a nanny. Anonymity might seem redundant to you and other people who "have nothing to hide". However, in a slightly more dystopian reality -e.g. when we are forced to use CBDCs- the government might choose to block you from using your hard earned money because you posted a criticism of the president on twitter.
- seoaeu 5y ago
  > the government might choose to block you from using your hard earned money because you posted a criticism of the president on twitter Um, I don't really see how cryptocurrencies are going to help you much when that same government just tosses you in jail instead. In fact, there are governments in our present reality that will throw people in jail for saying the wrong thing on twitter, so that really isn't an outrageous thing to imagine.
  - Acrobatic_Road 5y ago
    I'm sure the government would love to throw Edward Snowden in jail, but he is out of their reach. They would love to shut down Wikileaks and Sci-Hub too. On the other hand, governments can very easily weaponize financial services to deny people the ability to send individuals and organizations money - which is how Wikileaks found itself digitally embargoed by Visa, PayPal and Mastercard. Not so with cryptocurrencies. Cryptocurrencies can also provide anonymity to financial donors who would otherwise be targeted themselves for sending money to a party like Wikileaks.

tootie 5y ago

I feel like if you look at the last 20 years and don't fall on knees at the Church of Fiat, then you have no idea what you're talking about. Crypto doesn't solve any urgent problems and is contributing to climate change as a bonus. Who is making use of crypto right now except crypto speculators and money launderers?

sizzle 5y ago

Can’t wait to buy the dip, missed out on Eth <$500