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Then don't drive with other drivers - NON-autopilot drivers eating, texting (constantly!), seeming to look up directions and much more (falling asleep). https:

Then don't drive with other drivers - NON-autopilot drivers eating, texting (constantly!), seeming to look up directions and much more (falling asleep). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs0iwz3NEC0&t=2s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs0iwz3NEC0&t=2s The fact that you promote this absolute recklessness and demand users turn off safety features that may, net net save lives is depressing. Finally, folks get very confused between things like autopilot and other features (autosteer beta with FSD visualization) etc. I think some teslas now even show a message warning that cruise control will not brake in some cases? Anyone have that. I've been following the unintended acceleration claims around tesla's as well. Most seem pretty bogus. For what its worth here is data we currently have from Tesla: "In the 2nd quarter, we recorded one crash for every 4.41 million miles driven in which drivers were using Autopilot technology (Autosteer and active safety features). For drivers who were not using Autopilot technology (no Autosteer and active safety features), we recorded one crash for every 1.2 million miles driven. By comparison, NHTSA’s most recent data shows that in the United States there is an automobile crash every 484,000 miles." So you want to go to a 10x increase in crashes. (1 per 484 vs 1 per 4M). I realize this is nt one to one, but even outside of this we are seeing maybe a 2x improvement (if your normalize for road conditions etc). Nission Maxima had something like 68 deaths per million registered vehicle years. Will be interesting to see how this comes out for Teslas.

gameswithgo 5y ago
That data is not comparable, the autopilot in question there can only be activated in simple situations like a straight highway when you aren't changing lanes. While the human data is for all scenarios. Tesla is not being transparent enough with their data for us to know anything.
- slownews45 5y ago
  No one has shown any credible data that the fatality rate driving a tesla is higher than anything. They go out of their way to ignore cars getting into pretty clearly lots of accidents. My expectation would be that Suburu WRX / Infinit Q50 / Elantra GT type drivers are crashing more than folks using autopilot? Maybe ban them first? Anyways, we should in a few years get some NHTSA data on this, though there is some speculation that given their approach towards tesla if its possible they will delay it and stop updating vehicle model statistics if its favorable towards Tesla.
  - czzr 5y ago
    Here’s some credible data that your assumptions are probably wrong: https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-433670ddde17 https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-r...
    - gameswithgo 5y ago
      The comparison there is as bad as elons in the other direction. They are digging into every missing bit of data and mistake for tesla in a different data set than other brands. I wonder of you could redo now with official data.
    - ricardobeat 5y ago
      That page is not credible at all. IIHS reports are publicly available [1] and the numbers there don't match what's in the article at all. Large/very large luxury vehicles have an overall fatality rate of 16-21, ranging from 0 to 60 depending on model. The overall average for all vehicles is 36. The Audi A6 for example, is reported as having 0 fatalities in the article, while in the report the actual number is 16. The other source used, tesladeaths.com, lists a ton of accidents where AP was not deemed responsible. It actually states the real number if you pay attention - 10 confirmed deaths in the lifetime of Tesla as of 2021 - yet somehow the article claims 11 deaths up to 2016. [1] https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/status-report/pdf/55/2 https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/status-report/pdf...
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    That's one subset. What people can credibly claim, because Tesla's stats are entirely loaded and biased, is that any claim AP is safer than humans is just that, a claim. Because AP will (usually) disengage in situations where it won't do well, something humans can't. The closest you could come (maybe, who knows, because Tesla hordes the raw data like Gollum, despite their "commitment to corporate transparency") is: "In optimal and safe driving conditions, AP may be safer than human drivers, and in less optimal conditions, uh, we don't know, because it turns off. And we won't count those miles against AP." Tesla should actually, if they have the courage of their convictions, show how many miles are driven where AP/FSD would refuse to engage.
FireBeyond 5y ago
> NON-autopilot drivers eating, texting (constantly!), seeming to look up directions and much more (falling asleep). FSD is something people are _encouraged_ to use, not _discourage_. This is an entirely disingenuous take. And Tesla's stats have been, _repeatedly_, shown to be entirely disingenuous. Human drivers don't have a "disengage" mode, other than pulling off the road, when conditions are "suboptimal". AP disengages. FSD disengages. And suboptimal conditions are, surprise, surprise, the conditions in which more incidents occur. So the whole "AP is safer because when it's safe to use AP it's safer" circuituous reasoning, and every stat Tesla publishes, while withholding as much information from the public as it can (while touting their "corporate transparency is a core value" spiel), should safely be thrown in the trash.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
keefe8 5y ago
> I think some teslas now even show a message warning that cruise control will not brake in some cases? In my experience, that warning about not braking occurs when you are in TACC mode but are pressing on the accelerator to go temporarily faster than the set speed.
- keefe8 5y ago
  Unfortunately some people may have gotten into the habit of hovering their foot over the accelerator to be ready to override phantom braking, so maybe some even rest their foot on the pedal without realizing. Fortunately, removal of radar will reduce the frequency of phantom braking, so hopefully this habit will fade.

gameswithgo 5y ago

That data is not comparable, the autopilot in question there can only be activated in simple situations like a straight highway when you aren't changing lanes. While the human data is for all scenarios. Tesla is not being transparent enough with their data for us to know anything.

slownews45 5y ago
No one has shown any credible data that the fatality rate driving a tesla is higher than anything. They go out of their way to ignore cars getting into pretty clearly lots of accidents. My expectation would be that Suburu WRX / Infinit Q50 / Elantra GT type drivers are crashing more than folks using autopilot? Maybe ban them first? Anyways, we should in a few years get some NHTSA data on this, though there is some speculation that given their approach towards tesla if its possible they will delay it and stop updating vehicle model statistics if its favorable towards Tesla.
- czzr 5y ago
  Here’s some credible data that your assumptions are probably wrong: https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-433670ddde17 https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-r...
  - gameswithgo 5y ago
    The comparison there is as bad as elons in the other direction. They are digging into every missing bit of data and mistake for tesla in a different data set than other brands. I wonder of you could redo now with official data.
  - ricardobeat 5y ago
    That page is not credible at all. IIHS reports are publicly available [1] and the numbers there don't match what's in the article at all. Large/very large luxury vehicles have an overall fatality rate of 16-21, ranging from 0 to 60 depending on model. The overall average for all vehicles is 36. The Audi A6 for example, is reported as having 0 fatalities in the article, while in the report the actual number is 16. The other source used, tesladeaths.com, lists a ton of accidents where AP was not deemed responsible. It actually states the real number if you pay attention - 10 confirmed deaths in the lifetime of Tesla as of 2021 - yet somehow the article claims 11 deaths up to 2016. [1] https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/status-report/pdf/55/2 https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/status-report/pdf...
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  That's one subset. What people can credibly claim, because Tesla's stats are entirely loaded and biased, is that any claim AP is safer than humans is just that, a claim. Because AP will (usually) disengage in situations where it won't do well, something humans can't. The closest you could come (maybe, who knows, because Tesla hordes the raw data like Gollum, despite their "commitment to corporate transparency") is: "In optimal and safe driving conditions, AP may be safer than human drivers, and in less optimal conditions, uh, we don't know, because it turns off. And we won't count those miles against AP." Tesla should actually, if they have the courage of their convictions, show how many miles are driven where AP/FSD would refuse to engage.

FireBeyond 5y ago

> NON-autopilot drivers eating, texting (constantly!), seeming to look up directions and much more (falling asleep). FSD is something people are _encouraged_ to use, not _discourage_. This is an entirely disingenuous take. And Tesla's stats have been, _repeatedly_, shown to be entirely disingenuous. Human drivers don't have a "disengage" mode, other than pulling off the road, when conditions are "suboptimal". AP disengages. FSD disengages. And suboptimal conditions are, surprise, surprise, the conditions in which more incidents occur. So the whole "AP is safer because when it's safe to use AP it's safer" circuituous reasoning, and every stat Tesla publishes, while withholding as much information from the public as it can (while touting their "corporate transparency is a core value" spiel), should safely be thrown in the trash.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

keefe8 5y ago

> I think some teslas now even show a message warning that cruise control will not brake in some cases? In my experience, that warning about not braking occurs when you are in TACC mode but are pressing on the accelerator to go temporarily faster than the set speed.

keefe8 5y ago
Unfortunately some people may have gotten into the habit of hovering their foot over the accelerator to be ready to override phantom braking, so maybe some even rest their foot on the pedal without realizing. Fortunately, removal of radar will reduce the frequency of phantom braking, so hopefully this habit will fade.