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The collapse of our civilization will be because we are no longer able to accomplish anything except via "the invisible hand". At this point it looks to me lik

The collapse of our civilization will be because we are no longer able to accomplish anything except via "the invisible hand". At this point it looks to me like China is humanity's only hope since they don't have our society's extremist market ideology.

pmorici 5y ago
To the contrary I would suggest that the market will end up being the purest form of direct democracy ever to exist. This is only possible because modern technology lets everyone participate from anywhere.
- esarbe 5y ago
  That's right. In a democracy, a rich person can always vote more often than a poor one. Perfect democracy. Sorry, that was a bit sarcastic. Obviously, the market is not a form of direct democracy. It's a form of resource allocation. And a pretty stupid one, where everything is allocated by short-sighted impulse decisions and without any consideration of emergent phenomena. There are tons of scenarios where the free market simply does not have any solution at all. See the tragedy of the commons or of externalizing cost. Nothing in the free market will ever be able to address these issues. Even the often quoted and constantly misunderstood 'invisible hand' of the market is not some kind of mythical or emergent phenomena of the free market itself; it's the moral and social considerations of the actors themselves that make up the 'invisible hand'. Pretty stoopid.
  - pmorici 5y ago
    Money has always been an element of political influence. It’s just more obvious and honest in a free market.
    - inkywatcher 5y ago
      Not every historical system has privatized profits with socialized costs. With regards to climate change, it is a vitally important blind spot.
      - esarbe 5y ago
        A fatal blind spot?
emkoemko 5y ago
"The collapse of our civilization will be because we are no longer able to accomplish anything except via "the invisible hand"." then you say ... "China is humanity's only hope" what on earth? am i missing a joke?
- downWidOutaFite 5y ago
  Well the capitalist extremist countries aren't going to do anything about it. The chip-on-their-shoulder countries like India and Brazil aren't going to do anything about it. I think it's up to China and maybe Europe to pull something off while USA prays for some Elon Musk billionaire to save us.

pmorici 5y ago

To the contrary I would suggest that the market will end up being the purest form of direct democracy ever to exist. This is only possible because modern technology lets everyone participate from anywhere.

esarbe 5y ago
That's right. In a democracy, a rich person can always vote more often than a poor one. Perfect democracy. Sorry, that was a bit sarcastic. Obviously, the market is not a form of direct democracy. It's a form of resource allocation. And a pretty stupid one, where everything is allocated by short-sighted impulse decisions and without any consideration of emergent phenomena. There are tons of scenarios where the free market simply does not have any solution at all. See the tragedy of the commons or of externalizing cost. Nothing in the free market will ever be able to address these issues. Even the often quoted and constantly misunderstood 'invisible hand' of the market is not some kind of mythical or emergent phenomena of the free market itself; it's the moral and social considerations of the actors themselves that make up the 'invisible hand'. Pretty stoopid.
- pmorici 5y ago
  Money has always been an element of political influence. It’s just more obvious and honest in a free market.
  - inkywatcher 5y ago
    Not every historical system has privatized profits with socialized costs. With regards to climate change, it is a vitally important blind spot.
    - esarbe 5y ago
      A fatal blind spot?

emkoemko 5y ago

"The collapse of our civilization will be because we are no longer able to accomplish anything except via "the invisible hand"." then you say ... "China is humanity's only hope" what on earth? am i missing a joke?

downWidOutaFite 5y ago
Well the capitalist extremist countries aren't going to do anything about it. The chip-on-their-shoulder countries like India and Brazil aren't going to do anything about it. I think it's up to China and maybe Europe to pull something off while USA prays for some Elon Musk billionaire to save us.