6 ms·

Are you seriously suggesting that society could operate on system where people just work at any time of the day whenever they felt like it?

by sime2009 5y ago

pishpash 5y ago
Not parent, but yes? And why not, work any time is a natural evolution after work anywhere. I'm sure virtual reality and AI can fill in for the human illusion of synchronous communication one day.
- sime2009 5y ago
  Good grief. It really is time for some of you people to step away from the computer, get out of the tech bubble for a while and have a look at what most people in society are doing for a living.
  - Nasrudith 5y ago
    We really need to get over that tiresome and foolish self-flagellation complex of the "tech bubble" and the notion that our work isn't "real work". If an office worker walked into a construction site and declared they were doing everything wrong from the lack of paperwork documenting completion of every shovel of dirt they would be called a clueless, arrogant ass. Why would it be any different if the subject was a construction worker in an office building declaring it unproductive for a lack of tonnage of paper relocated?
    - sime2009 5y ago
      You are misunderstanding my point here. I'm not saying that IT work isn't real work. We're discussing flexible working times for all of society, and what I'm reading is people who somehow assume that most of society is in a job with privileges like being able to work from home or on "async" schedules etc. Few jobs are like this.
      - tremon 5y ago
        So, apart from teachers and live television, what jobs can't operate on a flexible schedule? As others have said, many jobs that require attendance are already performed in shifts. Yes, a waiter cannot choose to work when the customers are not at their table, but that doesn't mean they have to be there at every time the restaurant is open. Same thing for bartending/stocking/cashiers/front office jobs, many of these are already part-time jobs so flexibility is readily implied. Come to think of it, many of my high-school teachers worked part-time too. They didn't get to dictate their own hours, but they didn't work 7-15 every day either, some days they came in at 11 and other days they left at 12.
maerF0x0 5y ago
yes, for a good proportion of people this would work, and work could probably design around many of those who "cannot" via buffers, and for the remaining very small proportion where full coverage matter (like ER staff) -- well that's their profession so i guess not.
- dTal 5y ago
  I think it's an interesting idea but it's a much larger problem than you're saying - your perspective is from the narrow position of knowledge work that pushes information around, and it doesn't really matter when the information gets pushed around. But out in the real world, where things need to physically come together for economic activity to occur, synchronization is a huge deal. If you want a store to be open from 9AM, someone has to be there at 9AM. People will rely on that store being open at the stated time. It's not just ER staff - almost any other profession you care to name will not function properly if people just turn up whenever. Bartender, hairdresser, trash collector, construction worker, police officer, firefighter...
  - todorus 5y ago
    Honestly, this reads like the narrow perspective. It sounds like western culture. And an urban one specifically. There are cultures where you just close up shop when you've had enough income for the day. Not to mention rural communities all around the world that are more flexible about timekeeping in general.
- double_nan 5y ago
  I think you underestimate the areas where full (or significant) staff is needed. What about manufacturing jobs, farming, transportation and logistics (especially transportation of ppl not goods), services (including public services). I'd say all the services which require face to face interaction will become way more costly if such buffers will be needed to cover off hours. For example: there is a notion of skeleton crew and the service might not be operational without that crew so the choice is actually to spread the cost of off hours low load to the high load hours or close the business for low load hours.
bryans 5y ago
Outside of procedural manufacturing and public safety, very few industries are incompatible with the concept of flextime. The only thing preventing it from happening is archaic business management practices that were never based on actual research or metrics.
- sime2009 5y ago
  What's the gravity like on your planet? /s Very few jobs in society are compatible with flexible time where people can work when it suits them. Any job which requires some kind of real time coordination with others will conflict, which is most jobs. That is not even counting parents with school age children.
  - Nasrudith 5y ago
    You seem to be under the mistaken impression that society was created only a few centuries ago, and that widespread deployment of clocks were a prerequisite for escape from base "eat your neighbors and older relatives to survive the winter" savagery. Most tasks with real person in time coordination also have fixed locations, and optimal environmental work times. Roofers work early in the morning so they don't need to literally risk their necks to darkness while also avoiding scorching heat. Lighting was also expensive and very inadequate compared to sunlight. This lead to convergence. Notice all of the old proverbs and parables speak in terms of light and not time on clocks? In addition to the manual craftmanship, before standardized parts creation was done to fit by one person - something where you would prefer to do all of the relevant tasks with one person when possible. And manufactured goods were expensive precisely because most spent time on raw material related tasks. Actual coordinated work has music associated with the proper rhythm. Sea shanties, and rowing drums for instance.
  - GoblinSlayer 5y ago
    Quite the opposite, with flexible time workers are available at a wider time span and can do more coordination per day.
  - bryans 5y ago
    You claim "very few" jobs are compatible with flextime, yet nearly half of companies in the US already provide flextime options for most of their employees -- and this includes positions at every level. Your assertions are not representative of reality.

Are you seriously suggesting that society could operate on system where people just work at any time of the day whenever they felt like it?

pishpash 5y ago

Not parent, but yes? And why not, work any time is a natural evolution after work anywhere. I'm sure virtual reality and AI can fill in for the human illusion of synchronous communication one day.

sime2009 5y ago
Good grief. It really is time for some of you people to step away from the computer, get out of the tech bubble for a while and have a look at what most people in society are doing for a living.
- Nasrudith 5y ago
  We really need to get over that tiresome and foolish self-flagellation complex of the "tech bubble" and the notion that our work isn't "real work". If an office worker walked into a construction site and declared they were doing everything wrong from the lack of paperwork documenting completion of every shovel of dirt they would be called a clueless, arrogant ass. Why would it be any different if the subject was a construction worker in an office building declaring it unproductive for a lack of tonnage of paper relocated?
  - sime2009 5y ago
    You are misunderstanding my point here. I'm not saying that IT work isn't real work. We're discussing flexible working times for all of society, and what I'm reading is people who somehow assume that most of society is in a job with privileges like being able to work from home or on "async" schedules etc. Few jobs are like this.
    - tremon 5y ago
      So, apart from teachers and live television, what jobs can't operate on a flexible schedule? As others have said, many jobs that require attendance are already performed in shifts. Yes, a waiter cannot choose to work when the customers are not at their table, but that doesn't mean they have to be there at every time the restaurant is open. Same thing for bartending/stocking/cashiers/front office jobs, many of these are already part-time jobs so flexibility is readily implied. Come to think of it, many of my high-school teachers worked part-time too. They didn't get to dictate their own hours, but they didn't work 7-15 every day either, some days they came in at 11 and other days they left at 12.

maerF0x0 5y ago

yes, for a good proportion of people this would work, and work could probably design around many of those who "cannot" via buffers, and for the remaining very small proportion where full coverage matter (like ER staff) -- well that's their profession so i guess not.

dTal 5y ago
I think it's an interesting idea but it's a much larger problem than you're saying - your perspective is from the narrow position of knowledge work that pushes information around, and it doesn't really matter when the information gets pushed around. But out in the real world, where things need to physically come together for economic activity to occur, synchronization is a huge deal. If you want a store to be open from 9AM, someone has to be there at 9AM. People will rely on that store being open at the stated time. It's not just ER staff - almost any other profession you care to name will not function properly if people just turn up whenever. Bartender, hairdresser, trash collector, construction worker, police officer, firefighter...
- todorus 5y ago
  Honestly, this reads like the narrow perspective. It sounds like western culture. And an urban one specifically. There are cultures where you just close up shop when you've had enough income for the day. Not to mention rural communities all around the world that are more flexible about timekeeping in general.
double_nan 5y ago
I think you underestimate the areas where full (or significant) staff is needed. What about manufacturing jobs, farming, transportation and logistics (especially transportation of ppl not goods), services (including public services). I'd say all the services which require face to face interaction will become way more costly if such buffers will be needed to cover off hours. For example: there is a notion of skeleton crew and the service might not be operational without that crew so the choice is actually to spread the cost of off hours low load to the high load hours or close the business for low load hours.

bryans 5y ago

Outside of procedural manufacturing and public safety, very few industries are incompatible with the concept of flextime. The only thing preventing it from happening is archaic business management practices that were never based on actual research or metrics.

sime2009 5y ago
What's the gravity like on your planet? /s Very few jobs in society are compatible with flexible time where people can work when it suits them. Any job which requires some kind of real time coordination with others will conflict, which is most jobs. That is not even counting parents with school age children.
- Nasrudith 5y ago
  You seem to be under the mistaken impression that society was created only a few centuries ago, and that widespread deployment of clocks were a prerequisite for escape from base "eat your neighbors and older relatives to survive the winter" savagery. Most tasks with real person in time coordination also have fixed locations, and optimal environmental work times. Roofers work early in the morning so they don't need to literally risk their necks to darkness while also avoiding scorching heat. Lighting was also expensive and very inadequate compared to sunlight. This lead to convergence. Notice all of the old proverbs and parables speak in terms of light and not time on clocks? In addition to the manual craftmanship, before standardized parts creation was done to fit by one person - something where you would prefer to do all of the relevant tasks with one person when possible. And manufactured goods were expensive precisely because most spent time on raw material related tasks. Actual coordinated work has music associated with the proper rhythm. Sea shanties, and rowing drums for instance.
- GoblinSlayer 5y ago
  Quite the opposite, with flexible time workers are available at a wider time span and can do more coordination per day.
- bryans 5y ago
  You claim "very few" jobs are compatible with flextime, yet nearly half of companies in the US already provide flextime options for most of their employees -- and this includes positions at every level. Your assertions are not representative of reality.